Our Most Impactful Learnings From 2025

- January 6, 2026 (2 months ago) • 55:56

Transcript

Start Time	Speaker	Text
00:00	Shaan Puri	"Most people live their life like this." They build a well and they start to pump water. At the end of their lives—after a lifetime of pumping—they see they are still thirsty. They spent their whole life pumping rather than drinking, which was the reason they started pumping in the first place. What up, Sam? I wanted to do something a little different today. End of the year, I was doing a little Slack clean-out and I was looking at a channel I had for the best stuff I read this week. I call it my content diet channel. It's basically: what were the vegetables? What were my whole foods that I consumed? I consumed a lot of junk, but this stuff was actually good. I was just browsing through what really stood out or resonated with me. I have a couple, I don't know... and I wanted to know yours, because you read a lot more than I do and I think we read totally different things. So I'm curious if anything comes to mind for you on that topic.
00:52	Sam Parr	Yes. For me, it's a lot of books. For example, the topic I got obsessed with this year was presidential assassinations. I went deep on the four different presidents who were assassinated, and that interested me. I'm a huge history fan, so I could talk to you all about history. I can share some of the most amazing things that I learned.
01:14	Shaan Puri	I feel like we did a whole bit when the Trump assassination thing happened. On presidential assassinations, there are some crazy stories, right? There's the guy who had a speech in his pocket that blunted the blow, and so he got... [trails off]
01:25	Sam Parr	He survived.
01:25	Shaan Puri	Yeah. Roosevelt — he gets shot by his car on his way to a speech. He doesn't die because the speech is so thick in his pocket. He gives the speech while bleeding.
01:35	Sam Parr	Yeah, that was Roosevelt. There have only been four presidents who have been successfully assassinated, and three of them happened between 1865 and 1905. Pretty much up until Garfield was assassinated, which I think was around 1904. At that time, any American could — it was customary to just go to the White House and schedule an appointment with the president. The idea was that they were supposed to be a man of the people, and I think that's ridiculous. The Secret Service, even up until 1963–1965 when JFK was shot, was only about 300 people, so it was basically nonexistent. I'm obsessed with how something like that became an institution even after four — or sorry, four deaths happened. I've been obsessed with that. I've also been obsessed with leadership and the idea of speeches. Have you ever studied any of the great speeches of American or world history?
02:25	Shaan Puri	"Not in particular. What you got?"
02:27	Sam Parr	So, in particular, Winston Churchill—have you ever seen the movie Dunkirk? You've never seen it, right? I haven't. The idea is this: early in the war in England, Nazi Germany had just invaded France. It became clear that Nazi Germany was officially bad. Before that, people thought, "yeah, they're horrible, but they're going to stay to themselves." Then they started invading other countries and people started freaking out. They go to France and everyone's like, "Oh my God, I can't believe it." Imagine today—imagine France getting taken.
02:52	Shaan Puri	France
02:52	Sam Parr	Yeah. It's just insane. In England—which is nearby—they were like, "Oh my gosh, now they are coming to us." So they officially got into a war and had a skirmish at Dunkirk, where the Nazis surrounded a portion of the British forces—maybe 50,000 or even 100,000 soldiers. Basically, if those people died, the war would have been over. It was a magical moment where hundreds of ships—fishermen's boats as well as the British Navy—raced over, rescued those men, and saved hundreds of thousands of lives. But that's not the important part of my story. Up until that point, England was very fearful. They were imagining all the worst things that were going to happen. Winston Churchill, who was in power, was very nervous, but then he went, "screw it—we're not going to take this; we're going to get after it," and he gave this speech. At the end of the speech, in what I think is the House of Parliament—a setting where everyone was watching him—he said, "We're gonna fight in the beaches, we're gonna fight in the trenches, we're gonna fight in the land, and we will never ever give up." He gave this amazing speech that basically changed the entire morale of the country. We're talking tens of millions of people. I've always been fascinated when one person can exert a relatively small amount of energy and get everyone else to change their energy. Have you ever been to a concert? I used to love watching these Oasis concerts. They were famous for these mega shows—250,000 people in the audience. It's just one or two guys singing into a microphone, and they get 250,000 people to light up and push that energy back to them. I'm obsessed with what that one thing is that person has, and how they leverage that energy to impact potentially hundreds of thousands—or, in the case of Winston Churchill, tens of millions—of people. I'm trying to figure out what words someone has to use. If you think about Winston Churchill, do you know what he looks like? </FormattedResponse>
04:54	Shaan Puri	Yeah, I've seen photos of him.
04:56	Sam Parr	He's a short, fat kind of drunkard. He's not a good-looking guy; he doesn't have the traditional movie-star good looks or anything like that. So what I've been trying to study is how people do that.
05:08	Shaan Puri	Because you want to just deliver this at work, or what's the—like—connect the dots for me?
05:13	Sam Parr	Yeah, because I do want to become a better leader. Once your company gets up—my company, we're only like 25–30 people—but I'm getting to the point now where I'm not doing a lot of the work. I am having to... not motivate people, because a good employee is already motivated. But in order to make a good employee a great employee, you do need to inspire them, right? So I've just been trying to figure out how to become a better leader, and so I've been studying some of the... we're...
05:33	Shaan Puri	We're going to advertise in banner ads. We're going to advertise in the podcast. We're going to advertise everywhere—we will advertise. You know, what is the like rally cry that you're trying to get to them? What would be an example? Have you done it yet? Have you tried?
05:48	Sam Parr	Yeah, like... so right now AI is everywhere, and I just—it's making me sick that I am, like, having to talk to AI all the time. I'm not having a lot of relationships in real life. I'm not having what you call "belly-to-belly" conversations. What I've noticed with Hampton is once we got people in the same room once a month to have their conversations for the core meeting, it literally changed their lives. Not because we're particularly special, but just being in a physical setting with people who have been vetted, you know, that you have like-minded interests—and you're indoctrinating them into having what we call the three C's: confidentiality, candor, and commitment. That will change someone's life, and it changes their life just in a small way. These are entrepreneurs; it's not like the average show. So eventually we want to figure out how we can do this with everyone else. But just this idea that the world is going one way, yet everyone is so incredibly lonely and sad—what can we do that solves that, even if it's for a small group of people, like entrepreneurs?
06:38	Shaan Puri	"Did you see churn... go to zero when you went from digital to in-person?" </FormattedResponse>
06:42	Sam Parr	It's crazy. On a bad month, it would be in the sixties [percent] annual churn. Now it's in the eighties and nineties [percent].
06:49	Shaan Puri	"Six—wait. 'Sixties' meaning? So 40% churn, or what do you mean by that?"
06:53	Sam Parr	Sixties retention.
06:55	Shaan Puri	Yeah. So 40% would churn every month before.
07:00	Sam Parr	Annual — it's annual.
07:01	Shaan Puri	Annual — okay, of your annual membership? Okay, gotcha. And now it's, like, jumped up significantly. Yeah — just by making that one switch.
07:07	Sam Parr	It's not even 90% — there's all this other work, like being crazy about the vetting process. I don't think people realize: thousands of people apply. We let in about 4–5% per month, so we do a lot of work. In real life, this work does most of the heavy lifting. The problem is it's fucking a pain in the ass. It's really hard to do. We have to find moderators in all these cities and train them. It's really, really hard — not even close; it's night and day. Alright. I read a ton — I would say almost a book a week. The reason I read so much is my philosophy toward reading: I want to see what works for the winners that I love and what strategies they use. I also want to see what mistakes they all made, what common flaws they had, and then avoid those. HubSpot asked me to put together a list of the books that have changed my life so far in 2025, and I did. I listed seven books that made a meaningful difference in my life and explained the differences they had on me — what actions I took because of each book. I also outlined my particular ways of reading, because I'm pretty strategic about how I read, how I read so much, and how I remember what I read. I put this together in a very simple guide: seven books that had a huge impact on my life and the reading strategies I use. You can scan the QR code below [or use the link in the description] if you want to read it. There's a link in the description — just click it and you'll see the guide I made. Check it out below.
08:36	Shaan Puri	So it sounds like one of the things you're doing is tying it to a bigger movement, which is what the great leaders do. You're not saying, "Hey, we are trying to win; we're trying to grow revenue," because people only get so excited by the financial or metric success of a specific company. When you say, "Look, the world is going this way, but we gotta fight — I don't want to live in that world," that resonates. You can argue that world is messed up: people getting lonelier, talking only to AI, not seeing other people, just living digitally. This digital overload is trending in the wrong direction. Saying, "we're part of the resistance," is powerful. That "we're part of the resistance" framing is generally what most leaders do: they tie their cause to something bigger. You could play in a high school football game and feel like you're going to war, fighting for your brothers, like they took something from you and your family. A leader can make it feel incredibly important, even if it's actually just a Division III high school regular season game you'll never remember four weeks from now. A leader can elevate the importance of what something means, because meaning is not fixed. It is what you say it means, and what you tell yourself it means is what you'll actually feel about it.
09:57	Sam Parr	And, you know, I don't—when you studied social studies in fifth and sixth grade, they used to talk about these Roman emperors. I don't know if you remember this, but they would often refer to them as "orders."
10:07	Shaan Puri	Yeah — orders, yeah.
10:08	Sam Parr	Which is kinda... I remember thinking, I'm like, "That's funny." So this person who's—who's...
10:12	Shaan Puri	Content creators.
10:12	Sam Parr	Without... if I had an order in Rome, it was someone standing on a rock saying, "Hey everyone, here's what we have to do."
10:22	Shaan Puri	Should we rebrand from podcaster to orator?
10:25	Sam Parr	It's kind of... it's kind of like an interesting, technically.
10:28	Shaan Puri	That is what we do.</FormattedResponse>
10:29	Sam Parr	And you ask yourself, why on earth would an orator—someone who can speak well—why would they control... the entire world? I started thinking about that obsessively. I'm like, okay, what do leaders have in common? Most of the time it is great speeches and great speaking, and I underestimated that for a long time. So I've been trying to figure that out.
10:50	Shaan Puri	Well, that's been a rabbit hole you've been obsessed with.
10:52	Sam Parr	"I'm shocked that you're not going down that track either. I think you — I think you have that. I think you study it as well. I don't think you get enough credit for studying that, but I'm shocked that that doesn't fascinate you."
11:03	Shaan Puri	It does. It's just: what season are you in? Which rabbit hole do you happen to be in right now? That's a good one—I've got it earmarked. That's of great interest to me, but right now I'm interested in a couple other areas. I want to give you one. There’s a book I think a lot of people have heard about, probably even read. I read it, but I had sort of forgotten about this part of it: Die With Zero. Die With Zero is really like YOLO rebranded. So what is it about? I emailed her this passage and said, "Here's from the book." It says: > "Death wakes people up, and the closer it gets the more awake we become, because when the end is near that's when we suddenly start thinking, 'What the hell am I doing? Why did I wait this long?' You can't live every day like it's your last—if so, you wouldn't bother studying or visiting the dentist or doing anything that has delayed gratification. But if you delay gratification for too long or indefinitely, it's just too late. You also can't live life as if it's infinite. So we all face the question: what's the best way to allocate our life energy before we die?" Here are the principles. Principle one: timing matters. Some experiences can only be enjoyed at certain times. You can't water-ski when you're 90. In the book he tells this great story about his buddy when he was an investment banker. His buddy said, "Let's go backpacking through Europe." He's like, "I'm down." Buddy says, "Awesome—it's gonna be a six-week trip." He says, "Six weeks? How are we gonna get six weeks off?" Buddy: "We'll ask, but they're probably gonna say no. We'll probably have to quit." He says, "Quit?" He looked at his friend like he was being so reckless—"Wow, you're just quitting your job to go backpacking through Europe. What a reckless thing to do, what an irresponsible thing to do. I will do the responsible thing and stay in the job." He talks about when his friend came back—he immediately just sees the glow, sees how he's talking about his time abroad. He's like, "Oh shit, I made a mistake. What I thought was responsible was actually irresponsible, because I threw away this time in my twenties." Timing matters; there's only one time to go backpacking through Europe and sleep in hostels. He actually talks about how, when he was 32 or so, he finally gets the promotion he'd been waiting for, he has enough time to take off, and he goes and does that trip.
13:07	Sam Parr	Bill Perkins, the author.
13:08	Shaan Puri	Yeah. Bill Perkins goes and does the trip and he's like, "Guess what — it's not as fun to go bumming around in hostels when you're 32, 33 years old. That was a game to be played when I was, you know, 20 to 25, and I missed it. I missed the window." Timing matters. Second thing — what to worry about: we can always make more money in the future, but we cannot go back and recapture time. So it makes no sense to let life opportunities pass us for the fear of squandering money. Squandering our lives should be of much greater worry. The last one: money is life energy. Think of money as the concept of life energy. You trade some life energy working to get some amount of money — maybe $10 an hour. Then, when you want to buy a shirt for $30, you don't think about $30; you say, "Hell no — you want me to go work for three hours for this shirt?" Similarly, a higher salary doesn't mean more income on an hourly basis. If I'm making $200k a year but only working 20 hours, that's better than making $300k working 40 hours. It's like eating a cookie: one cookie is one hour on a treadmill. Is that cookie really worth it? </FormattedResponse>
14:08	Sam Parr	Just imagine if your credit card—imagine if your credit card, like, starts at 100 years old. And every time you buy something it now goes to 900 years. You know, right? Nine hundred years in six months. It's like, "Oh shit — that was six months I just paid for that."
14:21	Shaan Puri	When you checked out, it was like, "Awesome — based on your salary, that was, you know, four and a half days of work." So would you like to work 108 hours right now? When would you like to schedule that in? You're like, "Never mind — just keep the blender, dude. I don't want it. I'm not interested in this." I thought there's a lot of good stuff in this book. I actually didn't read the full book because it was kind of a "a book should be a blog" type of deal. But the core concepts in the first — let's say — 50 to 75 pages, I thought, were really, really good. The last one — this is one for you — the vast majority of financial fears are completely irrational. There are real financial fears; they do exist. Then there are irrational or illogical financial fears, like rich people who still worry about money even though the math clearly shows they're fine and will always be fine. I think this is also true for a lot of people.
15:13	Sam Parr	But I hate that advice. I hate it because—well, I'm not going to criticize the book, because I think it maybe goes into actual tactics. But it's sort of like selling a young guy who's struggling to date someone the idea: "just be yourself." It's like, well, my self sucks. Can you instead teach me to be a better self? Saying to someone "not to worry" is like telling an alcoholic, "just try harder," you know?
15:37	Shaan Puri	"So what is the solution?"
15:38	Sam Parr	Fuck. I don't know. Years of therapy... I'm not sure exactly. But... I haven't found it. No — you... you — I have found it; it's just "get richer." Like, what the...?
15:49	Shaan Puri	No, I don't think you found it.
15:53	Sam Parr	I don't know. I think you have to... There is a— I have hit a point where I'm like, "Okay, there's enough for this current lifestyle. That's for sure."
16:02	Shaan Puri	By the way, the final visual he has is this: > Most people live their life like this. They build a well and start to pump water. As the well fills, they use a cup to scoop out a small amount of water. They take a sip and go right back to pumping—higher and higher. > > At the end of their lives, after a lifetime of pumping, they realize they are still thirsty. They spent their whole life pumping rather than drinking, which was the reason they started pumping in the first place.
16:26	Sam Parr	When I see these things, a lot of the time the takeaway people have is: "I shouldn't work" or "I shouldn't do something." I don't think that's the takeaway he intends, but it's the takeaway many people get. I think that's a really bad idea. I do think there's something magical about working 30 to 50 hours a week. There's something powerful about contributing to a shared mission with others. So when I see this, I don't want young people to think, "I should get rich and not work." That's not the goal. You should have a mission in life that aligns with who you are, but you also have to contribute to society—otherwise you'll just feel empty.
17:11	Shaan Puri	Yeah. I think the idea here isn't "work or don't work" or "don't care about money or care about money" — those are sort of false choices. It's really about the way most people live their life. I'm speaking to the type of person who's going to listen to this podcast: you're probably an overachiever, probably a little Type A, and you're probably pretty hungry for success. You might be slightly impatient. These are, I would say, common—common disorders of the MFM listener group. I know this because I am one. I would say the trick is: for most of us we basically work, work, work, or we work and then try to fill in some life around the gaps. The idea I picked up from Jesse is: look, you gotta decide what you want to do in life and schedule that. Don't worry — the work is always there. The work will fill in all the cracks around those things. But if you just wait until you have large gaps of free time or "the right time" to go do that thing you always wanted to do, "work just is like a liquid or a gas; it just expands to fill the container you give it." So you have to be really conscious of how you let that fill the container. The analogy I use with Jesse is: you know, you have a jar.
18:27	Sam Parr	Jesse Itzler
18:28	Shaan Puri	"Jesse Itzler: Yeah — you have a jar. Imagine for your year you have — next to the jar — the jar's empty right now, but you have sand, you have small rocks, and big rocks. The sand is your day-to-day routines: errands, Zoom calls, meetings... It's stuff you have to do. You won't look back a year from now and remember any of those. Your Zoom calls don't go into your lifelong memories or your photo albums. They don't make it there. But you have to do some of them. Then you have the small rocks, which are little initiatives or small efforts. And then you have the big rocks — the things that really matter to you: taking that family trip, visiting your parents even though you don't have to and maybe don't have time but they're getting older and you want to go visit them; learning a new skill; launching a project. Those are your big rocks. If you put the sand in the jar first and then try to fit the big rocks in, they don't go in at all. But if you put the big rocks in first and say, 'I'm doing these; they have this much space,' and then you fill as much sand as you can, it turns out you can fit everything into the container if you do it in the right order. The sand will fill all the cracks and crevices, but the big rocks don't work that way. So you just have to figure out: what are my big rocks? What do I actually, really care about? Then put them in the jar first — at least schedule them first — so your life doesn't just become a jar full of sand."
19:55	Sam Parr	Dude, that's so funny — that's the same analogy the book Traction uses. It teaches you how to use their EOS system [Entrepreneurial Operating System]. They use the exact same analogy for why you should set goals, work hard, and do all that stuff.
20:06	Shaan Puri	Yeah, because it's like— I mean, somebody did this to us in high school or something. They did some... it's like a magic trick. It's like, "Oh, try to fill all these in," and if you do it in one order, it looks physically impossible. You put it in the other order, it all fits in, and you're like, "Oh, I didn't need a bigger jar; I just needed to put things in the right order."
20:22	Sam Parr	What else did you read this year that you liked? </FormattedResponse>
20:24	Shaan Puri	There's this Howard Marks blog post that I mentioned, called "Selling Out"—that's the title. Have you read this blog post?
20:31	Sam Parr	That's a new one. It's one of its more recent ones.
20:33	Shaan Puri	No, it was in January 2022.</FormattedResponse>
20:35	Sam Parr	Oh, that's cool. What did he say?
20:37	Shaan Puri	This is a conversation with his son, Andrew. Howard Marks came on the podcast and was awesome. His son Andrew is also a great investor, and they were talking about investing basics. The basic idea in investing is "buy low, sell high." But when do you actually sell at the high? Do you sell when it goes up a little? When it goes up more? Do you hold it forever? How do you actually decide? Howard is talking to his son about a position and asks, "Do you think you should sell?" His son says no. Howard asks, "Is there any price at which you would sell? Certainly there has to be some price." They have a back-and-forth, almost a Socratic dialogue. He explains the premise of a blog post: after lots of thought, he's realized there are only two reasons people sell—because things are up or because things are down. He admits that sounds a little silly, then explains. You could sell because it's up—as in you're taking profits, maybe afraid the gains will disappear. But it doesn't make sense to sell just because it's up. For example, if you owned Amazon in 1999 at $5 a share and it went to $9 and you sold, that clearly wouldn't have been a good decision. So simply saying "sell when it's up" doesn't work—how far up? Always sell? That doesn't make sense. Selling when it's down is usually an emotional reaction: panic, fear, disappointment. When the whole market gets pessimistic, you do too. So selling because it's down isn't a good idea either. So when do you sell? He talks about the concept of opportunity cost. All investing is about relative selection—comparing alternatives. Two basic considerations: 1. You initially invest in something because you have a thesis. Over time, you'll either feel more validated about that thesis or less. More information will come out—does the reason you bought this feel more true today or less true than when you bought it? If the product or outcome fails to meet expectations, your confidence should go down. 2. All investing is relative. Putting a $100 in one stock is
23:13	Sam Parr	"Wait—sorry. Was he saying that? What was he saying, exactly? Was that the right way or the wrong way—that your opinion shouldn't change?"
23:20	Shaan Puri	No, no — they should change as new information comes out. You update your thinking and you say, "Well, if the reason I bought the investment is no longer true..." Then I need to either have a new reason to invest, or I should not be invested in the thing.
23:33	Sam Parr	Versus just sticking with it because of cognitive bias — like, yeah.
23:36	Shaan Puri	The sunk cost fallacy or cognitive bias is when you try to convince yourself, despite all the evidence, that the facts are wrong. You put blinders on reality. The second part of it is that it's all about relative selection and opportunity costs. If you were not invested in this, you would be invested in something else. So ask: do you have more conviction in the better prospects of investing in something else than you do in this? There’s a third factor: concentration. He’s talking about his son, Andrew, and how one holding has gone up so much that he’s now overweight in it. Andrew basically says: > "That's true, but it depends on your goals. Trimming or selling would mean selling something that I have immense comfort in based on my bottom-up assessment of it and moving into something I feel less good about and know less well. To me, I would rather own a smaller number of things which I feel strongly about, because I will only have a few good insights over my lifetime. I have to maximize the value that I have from those." This tends to be true for most active investors: you only have a few good ideas. For angel investors, the vast majority of returns often come from two or three bets out of potentially hundreds. George Soros emphasized the importance of position size because you're going to be wrong a lot. His hit rate was estimated to be about 30% correct (so ~70% wrong). The key is that the 30% where you're right must be big enough to generate outsized returns, and when you're wrong you need to be wrong in smaller ways. If the game is all about sizing, being right on a tiny position doesn't matter. Stanley Druckenmiller, the legendary investor who worked with Soros, said that was the number one lesson he learned. He came in with a great idea and expected Soros to say it was too risky. Instead, Soros said, "If you're still confident, we should be betting 10 times the size." Either you're wrong about your thesis, or you're wrong about your size — you can't be right about both when your size is too small relative to your conviction.
25:44	Sam Parr	The reason I love talking to people like Howard Marks — and I would love to have any of these investors on — is not because I particularly care about investing. I find it mildly interesting, but it's whatever; it's fine. I care more about what they can teach me about how to live a better life. When I hear you talking about "truth" in investing, I'm like, "Oh — I made that mistake in this relationship; therefore my thinking is flawed." Did you have any takeaways on how this could apply to life, other than just investing money?
26:14	Shaan Puri	No — I was thinking about it more from a money point of view, to be honest. I mean, his solution isn't like he gives you some formula at the end, right? He says, "The bottom line: we should base our investments on our own estimates of the asset's potential." So that's the first thing: you have to think about the asset's potential. That's the reason you invest — not because it's up or down. We should not sell just because a position has risen. There could be a reason to limit the size or how concentrated you want to be, but there's no scientific way to calculate what that limit should be. It's a personal choice. In the end, like everything else in investing, it comes entirely down to judgment. It was less about, "How do I apply this philosophy to everything?" and more like, "Damn — everything, you know, judgment is the ultimate lever." Just like you're saying: who you pick to marry, where you choose to live, what you choose to invest in, where you go with your career — these are all judgment calls. We put very little thought into many of those decisions. Most people are pretty thoughtless about a lot of them, and we put very little effort into becoming better at judgment. If I ask you today, "How do you become better at judgment?" — how much time did you spend this year working on that muscle?
27:20	Sam Parr	None.
27:20	Shaan Puri	It's like... none consciously, right? Consciously, we're spending no time on probably the most important muscle to us — to our long-term happiness. Because your decisions become your destiny. So, how do you make better decisions?
27:31	Sam Parr	Do you study that?</FormattedResponse>
27:32	Shaan Puri	Do I study well? I do a couple of things. I don't know if I study per se, but I told you this before: I write down all my decisions. I have this thing called the decision register—it's a table. When I'm making a decision, I write down two things: what it is and why I'm making it, plus my confidence level in the decision. Then I go back and assess the decision register. Two things come out of that. First, I see whether I was right or wrong. Second, I see which decisions were important that I didn't even realize were important at the time—like going on a whim to that conference that felt like a small decision, but actually this amazing relationship came out of it and that led to this huge outcome for me.
28:11	Sam Parr	That's a good way to be retroactive. Explain to me—how you said you write down what it is. "Part of solving the problem is defining the problem." I buy into that. But how can I use your framework for making a better decision in the [moment], versus just looking back and trying to adjust? So my...
28:28	Shaan Puri	Here's — I call it the Decision Survey. Here are the actual questions I have in a Google Doc. 1. What is the decision? Write it in the length of a tweet: "I'm deciding to do X." Actually write it down. 2. Check in on your feelings. What am I feeling right now while I'm making this decision? Is it extreme fear, some fear, neutral, some greed, or extreme greed? Why — what is my emotional state when I'm making this decision? I know if I'm on either end of the spectrum — on the far end of the greed spectrum or up in the fear spectrum — I shouldn't be making the decision. </FormattedResponse>
29:00	Sam Parr	It's like going to the grocery store hungry.
29:03	Shaan Puri	Exactly. Then I write this: I say, "What is the one decisive reason to do this?" Blended reasons are bad reasons. I learned this from Reid Hoffman (a LinkedIn guy), or I think he learned it from Peter Thiel. The point is: if you want to go do something, you don't say, "Well, it'll be good because I… you know." He gives the example: > "Oh, should I go speak at this conference? > Well, it'll be good because I've never visited Canada before, and I might meet some cool people there, and it might be a good chance to work on my speech—my public-speaking skills, and, you know, it'll be a good time, a chance to spend time with this person." Basically, that's what bad decisions sound like. You can just blur out the words, but if you hear that tone, you're about to make a bad decision.
29:42	Sam Parr	But are you saying "bad decision" meaning a bad outcome, or that you're deciding on the wrong thing? Like, does "bad decision" mean I'm saying no when I should say yes, or does "bad decision" mean I chose poorly?
29:52	Shaan Puri	Judging a decision only by its outcome is a poor use of the skill of judgment. A better way to make decisions is to focus on the input — the decision process — rather than the outcome, which might just be luck. For example, in poker, sometimes you play deuce-seven offsuit. It's a bad decision; you shouldn't have made the bet. But if you get lucky — two, two, sevens come out and you hit trips — you might win. You don't want to let that fool you into thinking, "I should always play deuce-seven; it's my lucky hand." That's what really bad players do. Similarly, some people will fold pocket kings because they got beat once. That's not the right response. You should make decisions based on the odds and the expected value, put your money in when the odds are in your favor, and let things play out over time. Over time, making the right decisions will work in your favor. So avoid what's called "resulting," where you judge every decision only on the result. You have to judge the decision based on the input, not the output. This is easier in poker because the odds are known; it's harder in life because the odds are unknown. Still, do your best to evaluate the input. Practically, I try to write the one decisive reason. If I'm going to give that talk, it's literally because I want to spend time with this person and they live in Canada. That's why I'll go give the talk; that's why I'll take the trip. If that one reason is not enough, then there's really no reason to do it. You should have one reason that's strong enough to do the thing; everything else is bonus, and you can't count on it. What I do is write my strongest reason for doing it and my strongest reason against doing it, and then they joust. I look at those two reasons and ask, if they were arm-wrestling, which one wins — which one is stronger?
31:21	Sam Parr	But what attributes does each of those arguments have? For example, it could be "I don't want to — I want to be around my family" versus "This one thing could change: I can make a lot of money because it's a new customer."
31:37	Shaan Puri	First, it's gotta be honest. That's the first thing, because I think we're not honest sometimes about why we're doing certain things. Second, it has to be concise. It can't be a "spaghetti reason" because your brain can't even understand it. Last, it has to tie to your values. So right now, is your top value making more money and getting in great shape, or is it spending time with your loved ones? They're all good things, but do you have one that's valued more? Also, do you have a good substitute? For example: "I could do this to spend that time with this person, but couldn't I just go hang out with them when they're back? Couldn't I just call them once a week?" Is there a valid substitute that doesn't have the same cost? If there is a valid substitute, do that. I write down the secondary benefits, and then I ask again: if I took all the secondary benefits away, would I still make the decision? These are all related to: don't do blended reasons. That's the number one thing we try to avoid, especially smart people, because we love making lists — so we make long lists.
32:35	Sam Parr	Like, probably you—well, a lot of times, what people do is they do pros and cons, and they say, "Well, the cons list is way longer; therefore that's right." </FormattedResponse>
32:42	Shaan Puri	Yeah, exactly right. Or they just don't even make a decision — they write a big pros and cons list and paralyze themselves. I don't know… it's too complicated, right? And that's why you don't want to do that. So, what triggered the decision? What made me want to do this? This is usually a sneaky way of figuring out the fear-and-greed thing. It's like, "Oh, because my buddy did this and he got this great thing and now I want it too" — it's like FOMO or something like that. Seven is: What alternatives did I consider? This is usually just a test of whether you considered any alternatives, or if you're just trying to do the first thing you thought of. That's a sign of shallow thinking, which results in bad decisions. Is it a reversible decision? If it's reversible, good — I don't need to worry about it as much. If it's irreversible, I should think about it a lot. What's the upside if I'm right? What's the downside if I'm wrong? What follow-up is important to make sure this decision has a higher chance of being a success? So, you can almost make a decision a good decision if you do it with enough intensity: follow up, follow through, and take secondary actions. When and how will I know if this is success? And then, lastly: What do I think is going to happen? Just write down a quick prediction of the future.
33:47	Sam Parr	"Did you create this?" "Yeah, it's pretty good."
33:51	Shaan Puri	Thank you. It's a lot of effort. I'll tell you — I do this probably one-third of the time I should, and I would say the average person does it 0% of the time. The reason is that it's like going to church or something: it's like, "Man, I gotta — I gotta — I gotta go do this thing." I know it's the right thing to do. I know I should do this. I know it's good for me, but it takes a little bit of effort and it's going to require me to be critical of my own thoughts. It's so much easier to just not check in on those things.
34:20	Sam Parr	There's this, like, I don't know what it's called — a quadrant: four squares. Do you know the graph when it's like high urgency versus low, and then highly important versus not important? I think the idea is you have to allocate a certain amount of time to things that are not urgent and very important. But that bucket tends to get no love. Typically it's unimportant and urgent, and important and urgent. Because of that, you don't invest enough time in what actually builds the foundation for a lot of things in the future. What's really fascinating is that we're discussing how to get good at making decisions — which is one of the top things you could ever potentially learn. Yet I have never actually thought about that. I've tried to read Charlie Munger. He's famous for being an interesting thinker, and when he died recently they wrote an article about him. He had these funny quotes where he said, "It was really hard in life because I just knew I was so much better than everyone else," and even though he talked a lot, he wanted to talk so much more to show how much better he was than everyone else. So he's this really cocky guy, but his thinking is very good. I've tried to read Poor Charlie's Almanack like five different times and I just find it incredibly boring. Now that I think about it—well, you find it boring too?
35:40	Shaan Puri	Yeah, I'm like, I should love this on paper. Everything about this — I should love it. And then you read it and it's like, "I'm reading about Charlie's grandkid." Do I care about this? No, no, no. It's just a little slow. Give me some... I need, I don't know, I — I need some... I'm like a kid. I need some zingers every few minutes. It's a...
35:57	Sam Parr	Very textbook. It's very textbook.
35:59	Shaan Puri	Well, his speech — and a lot of other people's — really love these cognitive biases. I think he gave a talk once called "The Top Reasons of Human Misjudgment." It's about this exact topic, and I've listened to it. It's good, but I find it pretty hard to memorize 23 cognitive biases, carry them around in my head all the time, identify them when they're happening, and then find some root cause. I find a much easier approach is this sort of Socratic method: "What are you doing?" — "I'm doing this." "What makes you think that's a good idea?" — "Do this." "How will you know if this worked?" — "I don't know." — "Stop asking me questions." That Socratic method, to me, is a much clearer indicator of when I know what I'm doing. It helps me tell whether I'm making a good decision or a bad decision, and it helps me avoid mistakes in the moment. The other thing is just time. Don't try to make a decision at the same time you're gathering information. Sleep on it, or let three days go by as a cooldown.
36:57	Shaan Puri	If you can, it's the same thing with any impulse control. If you just add a time delay, you can avoid a lot of mistakes.
37:06	Sam Parr	When I was younger — in my late teens and early twenties — I used to do book reports on everything I read. I still occasionally do it. Back then it was: I'm going to read this one book this quarter, read the bibliography and all the cited sources, master it, and then write a book report. One quarter it was The 48 Laws of Power. I thought, if I learn about power, I can see when people are trying to manipulate me. And if I want to become powerful, hopefully I can memorize it. But there are 48 laws — how on earth was I supposed to memorize all of them? For the longest time, if you googled "48 laws of power summary," you'd find a Google Doc I wrote. I summarized all 48 laws, added my thoughts, and shared the document with people. When you share a Google Doc with a link, you sometimes forget that it's searchable on Google. For about three years that doc was number one in search results. Every time I logged in there would be hundreds of people on the document. It was so funny that it became number one. Later I enabled comments, and people started adding interesting takeaways. It became a crowdsourced thing and that was actually really cool. I was obsessed with how to memorize this stuff. Now, talking about Charlie Munger, I've tried to read him many times. Right now I'm telling myself and everyone listening that this is important, but I have not done it. I need to do this. It's actually so fascinating. A really interesting thing I ask myself is: do I wish I had done this three years ago? Yes. I should probably do it immediately, because I'll have less regret in the future if I do it now. It's funny that we're talking about that.
38:50	Shaan Puri	Well, Naval had this thing about reading that changed the way I think about it. I used to approach reading similarly to you: I was reading to get information, to learn something. I thought, "this book contains stuff; the goal is to get the stuff from the book into my head." That was hard. Sometimes I'd think, "this stuff isn't that great," or "oh my god, how am I going to memorize all this? How am I going to remember any of this? Do I remember the stuff I read recently? No I don't—does this even work?" Naval put it differently: > "When you read it's like rubbing two sticks together. All you're trying to do is create a little bonfire in your brain." He's saying you're looking to spark a thought, an idea. So you read not to transfer all the content of the book into your head, but to catalyze some spark—some realization, some thought process, some new idea in your mind. If you look at books as creating that spark in your mind, you look at them very differently. You often don't even need to read the whole book, and you don't feel guilty about that. You don't need to remember everything from the book; the book just needs to be a consistent tool to get you to think more interestingly and more deeply in the moment itself. If you do that habitually, you'll consistently be a better thinker. Once I started reading with that mindset, I enjoyed it a lot more. There was way less pressure and way less obligation. I didn't feel obligated to finish or to remember everything. I felt obligated only to ask, "What thoughts does this spark in my head?" When I started paying attention to that, it changed how I read.
40:36	Sam Parr	Did you read anything else that you liked this year?
40:39	Shaan Puri	I read a lot of stuff — I mean fiction. There's this book called The Will of the Many; highly recommend it if you like things that are kind of like Game of Thrones or Harry Potter. It's fantasy, not really sci‑fi. It basically mirrors Roman political structure, with a clear hierarchy. The Will of the Many is a good book and it's a series. The second book just came out, Strength of the Few, and I just crushed that one. I'm into this series right now — it's a good series. For me, one of the great joys of life is getting into one of these fictional series, whether it's Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, or another one. They're pretty hard to find and hard to get into because there's a lot of world‑building, but when you do, it's really, really rich.
41:28	Sam Parr	Did so that with Jack Carr this year... you know, Jack Carr.
41:31	Shaan Puri	"He does what—mystery novels? Or what does he do? Is it like war, like Tom Ryan, or whatever?"
41:36	Sam Parr	Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's called The Terminal List, and we actually had him on My First Million.
41:40	Shaan Puri	The James Reese series, which starts with The Terminal List, is a bestseller.
41:45	Sam Parr	Dude, it's crazy. So this guy—we had him on the pod. I didn't want you to come because I wanted to nerd out with him, and I was embarrassed at how much I love this book. It's one of those things where you read a book, fall in love with these fake things, and don't want to tell anyone else.
42:00	Shaan Puri	These fake things.
42:01	Sam Parr	"Have you ever read a book and felt sad that it's over? I have to remind myself that this person isn't real. There have been times when I've read a fiction book and found myself Googling — I need to see: did other people ever draw this character, or did an actor ever play them — so I can get to know them further. That's how it was with this guy and Jack Carr."
42:22	Shaan Puri	Who'd you read? Which books to read?</FormattedResponse>
42:24	Sam Parr	He's got six or seven of them. I've read almost all of them. He's one of the more prolific guys. I don't know how he writes so much, but he was so a... [unclear]
42:34	Shaan Puri	He came on the podcast. What was the one thing you remember from what he said or did? Did he say anything really insightful? </FormattedResponse>
42:40	Sam Parr	So listen to this: he was a Navy SEAL — he was bad. He was a bad-to-the-bone dude. He basically started writing these books, which was funny because writing is not a very typical masculine thing — writing fiction, writing stories. But this guy is like... I mean, he's a masculine dude, and he starts writing these, like...
42:58	Shaan Puri	He writes like this: his grip on the pen is...
43:01	Sam Parr	Yeah. And, like, what he was doing—he was picking his teeth with a big knife. He's a pretty hardcore dude, and yet when he talked to us he was very soft. He was the politest guy; he was so kind. The book series is basically about a Navy SEAL who was wronged and he goes to the end of the world in order to right the wrong. It just so happens that he gets into different adventures—seven different times, seven different books—sort of like James Bond: one guy constantly saving the world. But it was crazy how soft this guy was, yet at the same time he was very... I mean, he definitely has killed a lot of people before; he was this pretty hardcore dude but he was so gentle. I found that really cool. Is that a weird—well—thing to take?
43:51	Shaan Puri	It's a thing you do a lot: you're almost like a feeler rather than a listener. You're more into their vibe and their persona — it's always the first thing. That's cool. It's different than the way I operate, but I find that often when I ask you about somebody it's about the way they were, not what they said. That's cool. I think a lot of people pick up the unspoken, but you are particularly in tune with that.
44:27	Sam Parr	That's how I felt with John Morgan. I don't even remember half the stuff he said, but he had this cowboy vibe that I was into.
44:34	Shaan Puri	"I'm all vibes."
44:36	Sam Parr	I am all vibes. That's an interesting observation. I do — I do that all the time. I won't even remember what he and I talked about; I can't remember anything. But then you will constantly recall these stories, and they're very minute. I've been with you and I've heard you retell a story and you'll say things like, "and he set this thing down, and he looked at us, and he said this thing," and I'm like, "He did? I don't even remember that. How do you remember that? Why?" I don't think of those details. Or we've been together and you've told stories about Furcon, and you'll retell one with a detail I had no idea about. I just remember him as a really nice guy.
45:13	Shaan Puri	Yeah, it's kinda interesting. Also, to figure out: what do you want to observe, right? I wonder how intentional you could be about that. Like, would I change my little metal detector here — you know what I mean? Could I actually improve it? Could I be more intentional about what it is, or is it just innate? It's very... [trails off]
45:34	Sam Parr	Hard to know. No change. Bullshit. Curious.
45:35	Shaan Puri	About that.
45:36	Sam Parr	It's sort of like people who say they're bad at names, and I'm like, "No, you're not—you just don't care." Someone said that to me. I was like, "I'm bad at names," and they replied, "No, you just don't care." That bothered me, so I decided: I care. Whenever I meet someone—if someone recognizes me on the street, I'll say, "What's up, man? What's your name?" "Kevin." "Okay, Kevin, where are you from? Kevin, you're from—you're from Idaho? Okay, Kevin from Idaho, man. It was so good to meet you. Thanks, Kevin." I'll repeat it a bunch of times. Then you associate. I will associate him with where he's from, and I will always remember someone's name. All because someone made me feel bad. So I think I should change how I remember certain details. The way I think you have to remember those details is you have to remember the story — it all has to be the story.
46:17	Shaan Puri	So, Eric Jorgensen is another thing I read this year. Eric Jorgensen—he runs Scribe. He wrote The Navalmanac, a book that compiled all of Naval's wisdom.
46:26	Sam Parr	"Dude, I think he sold 1,000,000 copies of that. Is that true?"
46:29	Shaan Puri	"I think he sold a lot more than that."</FormattedResponse>
46:31	Sam Parr	More than 1,000,000 copies. Yeah. How many books have sold more than 1,000,000?
46:36	Shaan Puri	He's made—he's made a lot of money off that book, and it's great. The funny thing is, the genre of that book is, "in your own words, in his own words," a biography-type book. Right? So he doesn't write it himself; he compiles what Naval said without adding any of his own commentary. Naval has this philosophy of, like, "you open source your material; you let other people sort of fork it, remix it," and your ideas spread. Like—what more do you want than your ideas to spread?
47:04	Sam Parr	This is a win-win for everyone.
47:06	Shaan Puri	Right. So he's doing one on Elon right now, and he sent me an advance copy of his Elon book. I was excited and cracked it open. One thing I liked right away is—Smart by Eric—he puts something you don't already know about Elon at the front. It's a way to signal there's going to be shit in here you don't already know, assuming you're already an Elon general, a fanboy, or in the tech bubble. If he had started with, "Elon likes to think from first principles"—I mean, I know, I've read all that before—he instead talks about memory. It's Elon talking about memory: "When I was a kid I learned how to do these memory palaces." He says, "You can remember pretty much anything if you learn that; memory is a skill and there's a way to do it."
47:50	Sam Parr	Is that like walking through a house?
47:51	Shaan Puri	"Yeah, you know, the idea of a memory palace — you create a physical, three-dimensional (3D) structure in your mind. Then you link the item to a room, a location, or a visual object. After that, you create a short story, walking through from one spot to the next."
48:08	Sam Parr	So, the people who could memorize all the cards... they'd assign meanings. The king is like a real king, and the number seven is a house. There's a king and a house; he meets a queen, so he has a wife. The king is in...
48:19	Shaan Puri	A house on Sevens Lane. On Sevens Lane, his wife—the Queen—loved diamonds. And so she... you do that, and that's how you sort of build this thing. So it's like Elon talking about "memory palaces," and I was like, "This is great." I'm like, "Just give me more Elon stuff — I need it. I'm happy to get an unlimited buffet of new Elon anecdotes and nuggets, because how rare is that, right?" So I thought that was pretty cool. And in general his book is really good; it's gonna be good.
48:44	Sam Parr	I can't believe he has sold that many copies of that book. That is absolutely insane.
48:48	Shaan Puri	So one of the topics I was going to do today is a work smarter, not harder topic, and Eric is an example of this. So how do you write a bestselling book that sells millions of copies? Well, what if I told you it's none of your ideas and none of your words — would that interest you? It's a way smarter way to write a bestseller, right? Eric is doing that. There's this incredible interview that came out — a clip. Did you hear it? It's Akon talking about his music.
49:19	Sam Parr	"No. What did he say?"</FormattedResponse>
49:21	Shaan Puri	So Akon, the rapper, was on a podcast and he told a story. They were talking about his Guinness Book of World Records for ringtones. He said he was recording music at a time when the way we sold music was you would sell your single on iTunes for $1.99 for a four-minute song. Then he noticed everyone had a phone with a ringtone — they had a song as their ringtone. He asked people, "Do you get to pick what that is?" They said yes. He asked, "How much did that cost? Is it free?" They said, "No, you pay $4.99." A four-minute song was $1.99; a ten-second ringtone was $4.99. He called his lawyer and asked, "Check my contract with the record label — what's the cut on ringtones?" The lawyer called back and said, "Akon, there's nothing about ringtones in here. There's nothing about digital anything, and there's nothing for ringtones." Akon said, "Say less." He hung up the phone and started making songs that were meant to be ringtones. Every song he did, he focused on how it would work as a ringtone. He wrote and recorded with the ringtone in mind; he chopped the songs up to make them easy ringtones. He said "Mr. Lonely" became the number-one ringtone in the world. He wrote that song to be a ringtone. He broke the Guinness record — he sold 11,000,000 ringtones. At $4.99 each, that's $55,000,000 of gross sales on ringtones. He became the "ringtone king." When the label tried to redo his contract and slip in ringtone sales, he said, "Nope — that's not going in the contract. We're going to have to renegotiate a separate deal on that." I thought it was brilliant: Akon, ringtone — work smarter, not harder. How do you sell a ten-second song for more than a four-minute song? He figured it out.
51:24	Sam Parr	I so remember being 14 and hearing girls who had that on. They would say, "I'm gonna put that on my—" as my ringtone. Now it's... I don't.
51:31	Shaan Puri	"Even you do ringtones, does that still work?"
51:34	Sam Parr	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah... because I had...
51:35	Shaan Puri	A nobody has a ringtone now.
51:36	Sam Parr	No, I did. If you called by, it was a remix version of the Nokia one, and so it actually had beats. It started off like a normal—like, "did you just, like...?"
51:44	Shaan Puri	Crocs came back. Can you just bring ringtones back? I feel like if I were the music industry, the number one thing I would try to do is bring ringtones back.
51:51	Sam Parr	Well, you know what? Here's what I'm bringing back into my house. I bought a DVD player and an activity because I don't let my kids watch TV, but I'm letting them sometimes on Saturday when we're... overwhelmed. It's just me watching two kids and I need something. I don't want to turn on "YouTube" because I don't like the ads and stuff. So I got a DVD player. There's a thrift store down the street from my house that has DVDs. I will find a DVD, and it's incredibly fun to put it in. There's this new toy—have you seen this toy called... you'll know what?
52:23	Shaan Puri	"You're talking about... it's the little red thing, right? The one that plays music — that plays, yeah."
52:27	Sam Parr	What's that called? Like the "yuck box" or "yum" — it starts with a Y. They kill it... would just...
52:33	Shaan Puri	It's called Tony's.</FormattedResponse>
52:35	Sam Parr	What is it? There are two. There's one that starts with a "Y" as well. So... is it—oh, okay. It's an "A," and it's called "Tony's." It's like the box you put a disc in. </FormattedResponse>
52:43	Shaan Puri	You put—it's a box, and then you put a character on top, like a record, and then it just starts to play songs. But actually you buy it and then it doesn't connect to your Wi‑Fi because you don't have a 2G connection; you only have 5G. That's my story with the Tonys.
52:56	Sam Parr	It doesn't connect. It doesn't connect.
52:58	Shaan Puri	"You gotta have two Gs. You gotta have less Gs."
53:00	Sam Parr	I don't... I have too many Gs. Like, I mean, yeah — I don't even have, like, five Gs; I've got one above that, I think. But they're, like, an incredible toy. I'm playing with this, and so... we're actually — I'm actually on the hunt for a boombox. I want to buy a boombox where you just put the CD in and a cassette tape and click play. It's so fun. I had so much fun in my house doing some of this stuff.
53:23	Shaan Puri	Tony's — these guys crush, by the way. They do hundreds of millions. So Tony's... let's see, is this the right thing? Yeah, €510,000,000 last twelve months. €510,000,000 on this kid's boombox. Isn't that insane?
53:40	Sam Parr	"Tony's. The other one is Yoto — that's the one I got: Y‑O‑T‑O. Have you seen Yoto?" "No. It's like the same thing. I don't know how they're different. But I just remember one time I typed in 'Yodo' and it said, like, 'Yodo versus Tony's.'"
53:52	Shaan Puri	"127,000,000 in revenue? Are you joking me? What's going on?"
53:56	Sam Parr	Crazy, right? It's—it's an incredible toy.
54:00	Shaan Puri	It's ridiculous. It makes me mad.
54:02	Sam Parr	"Why — it's pretty brilliant."
54:05	Shaan Puri	"Yeah, that's what makes you mad — that the brilliance was not mine."
54:08	Sam Parr	"Dude, I followed this guy on Instagram who started Poppy. I don't know how he came up on my feed, but I saw him and I thought it was me. He looks just like me, but he's better looking. Have you seen what he looks like?"
54:19	Shaan Puri	"I thought it was me, Poppy—the drink." </FormattedResponse>
54:22	Sam Parr	Yep. Poppy founder — the man. It's a husband-and-wife team. Look them up.
54:25	Shaan Puri	Let's see... so you thought this was you?
54:27	Sam Parr	"No. Click a video. Go to his Instagram."
54:29	Shaan Puri	"This guy."
54:30	Sam Parr	Yes, trust me — go to his Instagram right now. I'm telling you: look at the videos. I was like, "Am I really a billionaire CPG guy or what?" I said, "Want to do a video together? We look alike." He said, "Could be funny — let's do it."
54:53	Shaan Puri	He's got a podcast — better podcasting, probably.</FormattedResponse>
54:56	Sam Parr	I don't know if he has a podcast, but he just does Instagram shit, dude.
54:59	Shaan Puri	You mad? This guy's just taking everything he worked for. Yeah. There can only be one.
55:05	Sam Parr	And I was shocked—like, do you know that Poppi sold for $2 or $3 billion? It started out as a probiotic soda. That sounds like the worst idea ever.
55:15	Shaan Puri	He lives in Austin. Oh my God — this guy is you.
55:18	Sam Parr	Yeah, if he wants to trade spots, we could talk. He just crushed it on that, and it's like the ultimate hack: when you start a company with your wife and it works, you both get all of the equity. Yeah.
55:34	Shaan Puri	That's crazy.
55:35	Sam Parr	Is that it? Is that the pod?
55:36	Shaan Puri	Alright, that's it.
55:38	Sam Parr	That's it. That's the pod.</FormattedResponse>

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