I made $100M+ betting on NBA games, now I own a pro soccer team

Haralabos Voulgaris

"This was the **biggest, greatest** edge in the history of gambling edges. *I can promise you.* But I've never uttered this in public to anyone ever before. You wanna nuke it? Let's nuke it."

Shaan Puri

Alright, so we gotta tell your story because your story is—you basically did what me and probably 50% of other young guys wanted to do in their life. It's like, "What if I could take a few thousand dollars, find an edge, beat the house in Las Vegas, and turn a few thousand dollars into millions of dollars—tens of millions of dollars—and ultimately, I believe, into hundreds of millions of dollars?" Not by counting cards in blackjack at first, but by, you know, sports betting. Then you get recruited by **Mark Cuban** to go work for an **NBA** team at one point. You now own your own soccer club. So you've had this really cool life and career.

Sam Parr

you're like a comic book character

Shaan Puri

Yeah — your man cave came to life. It worked, so that's dope. But, of course, no story is perfect. There are ups and downs; it's not all planned out this way. This podcast is mostly a business podcast: somebody comes on and tells us about their company, their investments, or whatever. What we like most is people who *play their own game*. What I like about you is you play your own game — you're a pretty independent thinker. I want to walk through the story. I'll call **Chapter One** "Stumbling into gambling and figuring out how to..." [trails off]

Haralabos Voulgaris

have that edge can you tell

Shaan Puri

A little bit about that story. I think I know a bit of it, but **Sam**, you don't know any of that story, right? How he first got started and made a name for himself doing this?

Haralabos Voulgaris

No. Yeah, I mean, I grew up around gambling. My dad was— I use the term "unsuccessful gambler"; some people might refer to it as "degenerate." He was someone who gambled a lot, unsuccessfully, and that caused a lot of problems in our family. Not to sugarcoat it—it was bad. I grew up around the horse racetrack, and I grew up watching NFL football on Sundays, basically trying to help my dad make picks.

Sam Parr

what city

Haralabos Voulgaris

I grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. I was at the Assiniboia Downs racetrack every Saturday, Sunday, and Wednesday for most of my teenage years — I'd say from about **12 to 18**. So yeah, I was just kind of around it. I always thought it was rather interesting. One thing I didn't realize when I was younger was how near-impossible it is to beat the horses because of the takeout. The *vig* is so high — about **30–36%**. They've got to pay for everything: the stables, the horse approvals, all of it. I thought, "Well, these people don't know what they're doing." They had no process; they didn't know what was happening. They were very emotional. I grew up in a **Greek** family, so you would hear these people — they just were not in control of their emotions in any way. They would be upset when they won; they would be upset when they lost. They would be arguing with each other. I'm very low-key, so it was very different for me.

Shaan Puri

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Haralabos Voulgaris

So that's how I got started. Then, at some point after I graduated from high school, I went to Las Vegas with my dad—he was there. I stayed for about a month or so, or whatever.

Sam Parr

he was there gambling like like everything

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah, exactly. My dad was—if it was daylight hours and he had money in his pocket, he was gambling. "What was his occupation?" He was a **first-generation** immigrant. He moved to Canada when he was about 20 years old but didn't speak a lick of English. He became a dishwasher at Kentucky Fried Chicken and just worked his ass off. He moved his way up from dishwasher to restaurant work and finally got involved in real estate development. He had strip malls all over Winnipeg. You should have him on the show—he's got a great story.

Sam Parr

so he was an entrepreneur

Haralabos Voulgaris

big time entrepreneur yes

Shaan Puri

Wow. And when you go to *Vegas*, you're not 21, right? You just graduated from high school. So what do you do with your dad? You're in a casino — you can't really do much.

Haralabos Voulgaris

much I park myself in the sportsbook and hope that nobody tells me because they

Shaan Puri

don't id you in the sportsbook yeah you just

Sam Parr

sit there they're

Haralabos Voulgaris

So I was supposed to, but they don't — you're just in the sportsbook, so you're just sitting there. I would just watch basketball. It was the first time I really ever watched **NBA** basketball to that extent. Previously I watched a lot of hockey and Canadian football. My dad would give me a little bit of money — not a lot — and I would watch basketball. I'd sit there from 4:00 PM Pacific to 10:00 PM, 11:00 PM Pacific and just watch the games on these giant TVs. I started to really enjoy the routine of watching the West Coast games, so I began to pay more attention to the West Coast teams. That was like Chris Webber's rookie year when he played for Golden State, and they had a run — *TMC*, I think it was before that.

Shaan Puri

and so yeah that's all I did were you losing money at first what was going on when did you start making money

Haralabos Voulgaris

No, that was a lot. I didn't really win — I wasn't losing a lot, though. I had an okay opinion by the end. But yeah, I was losing, of course; I was probably flipping coins and playing big, so it was probably about 50/50 roughly. But I needed to win... you know. I needed to win "11 to 10" — "eleven out of every ten" [unclear phrasing in original]. So it wasn't bad; it wasn't like I was getting my ass handed to me or anything. Then I realized I really like this and I *want* to get good at it. I thought about what that entails: what do I have to do to get good? So I went to work. I started taping games and started reading a lot of newspaper articles on the internet.

Sam Parr

When you're—when you're saying you're learning to get good at it, how much of it is the **human side**? Are you learning the human emotions of the players, leadership, and things like that—the **story versus the statistics**?

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah. Back then there were not a lot of good statistics. There was just something called the **"box score,"** which is not very illustrative of the game. So it was almost that, and a little bit of database work—just getting aggregates from teams in certain situations. I also tried to really understand the market more. In other words, the opening lines and **odds**. What I got really good at when I was in Las Vegas around that time was watching the **sharps** who would line up at the **Stardust Casino** in the morning. They had something called the **"lottery."** The lines would be posted in the morning, and each sharp could make a full-limit bet. They would hold a lottery to see who could go first; that person would make a bet, and then the book would decide whether to adjust the line. So I started watching to see: who are the actual sharps? Who are the guys who seem like they're moving money for other people? What are they betting?

Shaan Puri

so you're treating it like a job you must have been getting there early then

Haralabos Voulgaris

What time is that? Yeah, I mean, it's *not a lot of work*. It's **not manual labor**—I'm not laying bricks or riding off the back of a brontosaurus like Fred Flintstone breaking rocks. </FormattedResponse>

Shaan Puri

but that

Haralabos Voulgaris

would work

Shaan Puri

and so did you go ask them to learn from them or you're just watching them from afar and figuring it out yourself

Haralabos Voulgaris

I just wanted to see: okay, this guy made a bet and the line didn't move. That's interesting. Then you see him back the next day, and the next day. By the way, it wouldn't just be one — you'd see that now at 4:00 post time the lines would move even more. So it's like, "Okay, this line moved a lot; there wasn't an injury; that guy bet early." It was just little things. If I have one skill in life, aside from *not really caring what people I don't know think about me* and being confident in that, it's maybe a little bit of **pattern recognition**. I'm decent at that. I can see patterns, and I'm also able to identify whether that was an actual pattern or if I was just fooling myself with randomness.

Sam Parr

"Did you have a role model? Like, was there— you know, as an *18- or 19-year-old*—were you thinking to yourself, 'There are other people who have gotten **super rich** doing this; I think I can do it'? Or were you like, 'There are some people who make an **okay living** doing this; I think I can do it'? Or were you like, 'I don't think about next year—just this. This is what I'm enjoying today'?"

Haralabos Voulgaris

When you're 19, you don't really think like that. I don't — in terms of, like, "oh, I wanna make a..." I've always been someone who's been very confident that I was going to be successful. I would recite things in my head when I was a kid: "I'm gonna be a millionaire. I'm gonna be a millionaire." I would just do that. So, at that age I think I was just kind of... I wasn't sure how I was gonna make it. I just knew I was gonna make it. I kinda went through life with this *irrational confidence*, I think.

Sam Parr

was there a definition of making it was it like $10,000,000 by the time I'm 25

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah. I think when I was tree planting, I listened to **Tony Robbins**' books — listening to them at night and then reading them in the morning. I had about ten things I wanted, and I think one was to have **10 million** before the age of 30. Back then, that was a lot of money. Now you can just spin up a meme coin and make it by noon, but back then it was blocked.

Shaan Puri

what was the first profitable pattern you figured out the one that really

Haralabos Voulgaris

Really kinda worked. *Canadian football* was first profitable. My first bit of money was Canadian football — not like soccer but actual football, *three-down football*. There were a lot of things going on. Then they expanded into America at that time, and so you had some interest, for whatever reason, in Las Vegas to book **Canadian Football League (CFL)** games or other offshore markets. The Canadian teams had to abide by different rules than the American teams, so that was part of it. You had to have a certain amount of Canadians starting on your roster; American teams didn't have that requirement. The Canadian stadiums were all compliant with CFL rules; American stadiums were not. For example, in the Canadian rules the end zones are 20 yards deep, but in some stadiums in America they didn't have that luxury, so they were squared off at the back. Those games are lower scoring — that was a big part of it. I just got to be really good at knowing a lot about Canadian football and which teams were sharp and doing innovative things. So, Canadian football.

Shaan Puri

So, can you give us a sense of the kind of journey? So you start with roughly what bankroll, and then how long did it take you to get to your *first million*? And then at one [unclear]... I think you were betting like a million dollars a day, or maybe even more than that. Yeah, I was betting.

Haralabos Voulgaris

A lot. I mean, I think... it's a *long story*. I think the most it got to be: I was a skycap at the Winnipeg International Airport. That's when things really took off for me. And I don't think anyone's ever said that before in their life—that they wanted to...

Sam Parr

talk to people you were what

Shaan Puri

what is a skycap

Haralabos Voulgaris

The dudes are... I was, like, the first white *skycap* hired among Winnipeggers. They're the dudes who sit curbside and carry people's luggage in and check it in. In the U.S., they check the luggage in, but in Canada that's not allowed because of Transport Canada, so you would just carry people's luggage in. So I would carry. </FormattedResponse>

Sam Parr

people's luggage

Haralabos Voulgaris

We don't like being called *"bag boys."* "Bag boys" — yeah, basically. You're just carrying people's luggage. In Canada, a big thing in the winter was "snowbirds" who are fleeing Winnipeg to move to Florida for the winter. They're in wheelchairs, and you're just wheeling them through customs and immigration and making sure their bags...

Shaan Puri

and you're making what per hour roughly

Haralabos Voulgaris

I was making a lot. I started out as a skycap in the summertime. I was *printing money*, and I was making—well, I started out as a skycap. I realized that the Saturday–Sunday shifts were very profitable because we had American fishing travelers coming on these boats. They'd have to take a charter plane to go fishing somewhere in northern Canada. In those days you were making $400 or $500 in an eight‑hour shift—easy.

Sam Parr

wow

Haralabos Voulgaris

And so I basically went to the boss of the company and said, "Hey, I really want to work the Saturday and Sunday shifts. What do I gotta do to make it happen?" He said, "No — we gotta spread those around. It's not fair." The other dudes weren't making any money; they would make like $80. So I just started paying them for their Saturdays. I started paying them like $80 to work Saturday and Sunday. Then the owner got wind of that and he got upset. He started working the Saturdays and Sundays and couldn't figure out why he wasn't making the money that I was. But I was—what were you doing?

Sam Parr

you were like complimenting these folks and just getting tipped

Haralabos Voulgaris

I was just, you know, doing things like getting them limos to go to the strip clubs for the four hours that they're there, getting them Cuban cigars — because Cuban cigars are illegal when they land — and making sure they had Cuban cigars and charging them three times the value for that. It feels like little things like that.

Sam Parr

yeah just being intense I

Haralabos Voulgaris

I was being intense — I was like a concierge of the Winnipeg International Airport. But anyways, I ended up taking over the company from him. I just undercut his contracts. So, at the Winnipeg International Airport, I was making **so much money**.

Sam Parr

**That's an easy leap, right?** Bag boy to taking... It's like you just walk into his office and you're like, "Hey, guy, move — they're working for me now."

Haralabos Voulgaris

I went to him and I was like, "Yo, I've already got Northwest—well, it was Northwest Airlines, now Delta, I guess, but it was Northwest. I've already got them to agree to the contract. Everyone wants to work for me. I can give you some money and you can just move on, or I can undercut you on the money I'm going to give you. I'm gonna say, you know, it's a win-win." He was like, "Nope, don't wanna do that," whatever. So I ended up doing that. I ended up undercutting him. </FormattedResponse>

Sam Parr

so how old are you

Haralabos Voulgaris

I was 22 or 23. That’s amazing — that was actually a crazy story. I was making so much money at the Winnipeg International Airport as a *skycap* and gambling — mostly from being a skycap — that, at the time, Eric, there was actually a bunch of... some cocaine that was found on Air Canada. I had a pass to go everywhere as a skycap. There was a situation where a large amount of drugs was found, and one of the U.S. Customs and Immigration employees — who I’d become friends with — said, “Hey, you should know: they think you’re involved. We know what you’re doing here as a skycap, and I know you, but you’re suspect number one.” He explained they didn’t understand why I had a Cadillac — not brand new, but you know, driving a Cadillac like some gangster — and why I was walking around with wads of cash from the skycap tips. I was like, “What?” He was like, “Yeah.” They were laughing; they thought it was funny. They realized, of course, it had nothing to do with me, but you can Google it — it actually happened. There was some kind of incident in Winnipeg at the time where they found something. </FormattedResponse>

Sam Parr

So, what was your income at the ages of 22, 23, and 24 while doing all this? </FormattedResponse>

Haralabos Voulgaris

I was making about **$50,000 or $60,000** a summer, easily. I was living with my mom and my older brother. We were paying my parents' rent for a while after my dad kind of had a downslope during 1987 [when interest rates went up]. The strip-mall business wasn't so good anymore, especially when you were borrowing money at floating rates to build those strip malls. So yeah, that was about what I was making at the time.

Sam Parr

so you're

Shaan Puri

you've been rich since

Sam Parr

you were 23 years old

Haralabos Voulgaris

Oh, I don't think so, because I'd been spending — you know, I wasn't exactly saving. Money was going. I was going out for dinner every night. I was spending the money. I was taking trips to Vegas. I was doing stuff. But yeah, I was... I had to pay for my school also. I had to pay for my university, so I was paying for my university. I was supporting my parents. **I wasn't rich; I just worked hard.** Also, while I was working as a skycap [airport baggage handler], I also worked at Rogers Video. I was working forty hours a week at Rogers Video in the summer, skycap in the morning and Rogers Video, which is like a Canadian Blockbuster. So I had a work ethic.

Shaan Puri

I guess you're more of a *hustler* than I thought. I had gotten the public perception that you're kind of just a sharp — it's all mental. You sit in your room, you have your models, then you make bets and the money comes in. I didn't know, at least, some of these stories about you kind of hustling as the skycap [airport porter] and figuring out how to run your own operation down there. That's pretty cool. When did — I don't know, Sam, if you've heard these stories — but I guess a couple of your famous betting stories are: you went all in at one point on the Lakers to win the championship at about 6-to-1 odds.

Haralabos Voulgaris

yeah six and a half to one roughly

Sam Parr

what how much is all in and what and what age and the timeline is it

Shaan Puri

it was

Haralabos Voulgaris

like 87,000 canadian give or take

Sam Parr

and and that was all your money

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah, but you could go buy... I, you know, I looked at it like, "Okay, it's all my money now." It's like October—fishing, you know: fishing season just ended at Winnipeg International Airport. I've already paid for my tuition at the University of Manitoba to get my *useless philosophy degree*. I'm living in my brother's basement. Worst case, I lose this bet and I just go back to skycapping and make half of that or two-thirds of that back again. So, yeah, I made a bet. It wasn't a sharp bet by any stretch. Looking back, it wasn't sharp, but it felt sharp to me at the time. Your risk model hasn't developed—your amygdala or whatever hasn't fully developed. You're that age; you don't really understand if you're making good decisions.

Sam Parr

did he win

Haralabos Voulgaris

yeah he won yeah

Shaan Puri

sam have you heard the bill burr quote about risk

Sam Parr

no what's he say

Shaan Puri

The comedian has this great line about *risk*. Being a comedian is risky on many levels. You're probably not going to become a famous, millionaire touring comedian, and just stepping onstage is a risk—you'll get humiliated most of the time when you're not that funny. Someone asked him how it felt to take that leap of faith. He replied that he didn't see it as a risk and told a story: > "I didn't see it as a risk. The best thing that ever happened to me—I'm kind of dumb, but the one smart thing I realized early on—was that the real **risk** was waking up in a king-size bed when I'm 40 years old, turning over to a woman that I don't love anymore, being married because I thought it was the right thing to do, and dreading the job I have to go to in six hours. > That became the risk in my head." He contrasted that with chasing your dream: > "Chasing your dream—there's no risk at all. You're doing the thing you want to do. Versus living a life you don't want to live just to play it safe—that seemed like a bigger risk."

Haralabos Voulgaris

I definitely relate to that. I mean, I don't know if any of you guys had the pleasure of spending a winter in **Winnipeg**, but it's *not pleasant*.</FormattedResponse>

Sam Parr

one of the

Shaan Puri

Other stories—then that's pretty sweet. He, I guess, is at one. Like, in Vegas you can bet on the full game, which is what most people do. I'm a casual: I go in and just bet the *over/under*, maybe the final score. What he realized was that you could also bet on the **first half only**, which was not as common. But the way Vegas does it is they take the full-score prediction—which they're pretty accurate at—and for the halftime score they just cut it in half (divide by two).

Haralabos Voulgaris

roughly yeah make the first half a little bit higher scoring in general I could tell you guys look I haven't told this I tell this story in a way that makes it so the edge still lives on for the people that are still betting but I don't know you guys caught me on okay this is this will maybe go viral I don't know probably fuck up a lot of people's money but I think I think that people most people have figured it out by now but I've never uttered this in public to anyone ever before true story okay the away team gets to choose which basket it wants to shoot on oriented so you have teams who play back then I would say 30 teams in the nba twenty eight of them 27 of them when they're on the road would always want their offense shooting in front of their own bench and they would want their defense shooting in front of their bench in the second half therefore the first halves are higher scoring the second halves are lower scoring you've got the bench in front of you you can park out instructions this and that three coaches god bless them I wouldn't be here without them decided that they wanted to flip it and they wanted to have the defense in front of them in the first half and the second half they wanted to randomize the game and make the second half higher scoring so you would literally like eddie jordan it was jerry sloan was the king of this he was the first original guy from utah and so this was the biggest greatest edge in the history of gambling edges I can promise you you would have situations where the total would be higher in the first half lower in the second half and the team would literally score on average 106 points in the first half and 87 or something like this or 90 whatever it was back then in the second half you also have the advantage of fouling at the end of games which will also make the score in the second half higher scoring and overtime which is a nice little bonus too working in your favor so the second half over was like you would have teams playing doing this 41 times a year and they would go nine overs in the first half 30 whatever 32 30 three with some pushes in the second half and you could just print money making this bet and that's what I did and I figured that out very very quickly I actually I didn't figure it out that quickly to be honest I'm not as bright as I think I am because it took me a long time to figure out what the fuck was happening I just knew these teams had situations where on the road their games were much lower scoring in the first half than they were when they played at home and I thought well they're they're trying to slow the game down it's this and that but really it's just you're more efficient when your offense is in front of your bench because the other team's defense can't get set and you can mark out and start

Sam Parr

like a clear pattern right like you'd only need a season of games to understand that pattern

Haralabos Voulgaris

But you don't know that teams are doing this. It's not like they announce it — "hey, the Mavericks are shooting" — they're the one team nobody's paying attention to. Nobody knows that a team is doing that. Back then it was a perfect situation because it was three to four teams a year and they were all bad teams. In my heyday it was the Utah Jazz — a bad team; the Washington Wizards with Eddie Jordan — a bad team; Byron Scott's New Jersey Nets — a bad team. Then you had a few teams like the Minnesota Timberwolves who did it some games, not other games, which is the dream scenario. Nowadays that's probably screwing these gamblers because when that happens you've... so, that was it. That's why I made a lot of my money. And you could — if I had a bankroll... *this is not responsible, please don't follow this* — but if I had a bankroll of like $250k (because I was betting on credit; you settle at the end of the week), I'd have a situation where, if I somehow lost all my bets, I'd be like $2–3 million in debt. But it didn't matter because I knew my **edge** was so big that I was betting. I somehow partnered up with some big book — big bookmaker / alleged mafia guy in Montreal (which is another story) — who was able to get me down for a lot of money. He basically: I gave him the bets, I told him what I wanted to bet, he would go bet them for me, he'd collect, he'd give me the money, I'd win. And that was that. So that's the **edge** — that's the whole edge in a nutshell. </FormattedResponse>

Sam Parr

this is insane I have so many questions but it it you know I'm a new friend

Haralabos Voulgaris

I don't want to always... I've had friends I've told this to who say, "Oh, can you please share that on my podcast with me?" I'm like, "I feel bad for the people who are still grinding out a living doing this." But you know what? **It's a new day.** Terrorists are here. This is my terror to the gambling community.

Sam Parr

"I'm a new fan of yours. Sean was like, 'We gotta talk to this guy,' so I went and read everything I could in the past week. Can you give me, as a noob, some type of scale as to your winnings? Are we talking hundreds of millions of dollars in winnings, or whatever you're comfortable with?"

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah, no. I mean, look—I made between **$10** and **$12 million** a year gambling for ten to fifteen years, minimum. So... we're talking **$9.09**.

Sam Parr

figures in in the winnings

Haralabos Voulgaris

I spent a lot. Like, I didn't just always—that was my net win, you know. Well, I'm not talking about local wins and losses. I mean, I lived a pretty good life: I took care of my parents, I did other things. But yeah, I profited a lot gambling on basketball for sure. Like, a bad year for me in the **NBA**, I think it was something like $6 or $7 million. The average was probably $8 million. In the early heydays I made more money than I—yeah, but I also made some mistakes afterwards. But yeah, I totally... but what? </FormattedResponse>

Sam Parr

Are you, in your personal life, living the life of a 28-year-old rich guy? I mean, are you spending **seven figures** a year personally? "No, no, no, no, no. Not that crazy."

Haralabos Voulgaris

I tried other business things. I helped out some family. I bought a property in Montreal. I bought some stuff for my... I mean, yeah.

Sam Parr

so you're not you're not you you kind of overplay you're you're it doesn't seem like you're being irresponsible

Haralabos Voulgaris

No — I was just like, I just think life is short, and what's the point of money if you can't spend it? I don't spend it on stuff; I spend it on *experiences*. I spend on experiences. I'm not a flashy guy. I don't drive a fancy car. I don't wear jewelry. I've never had a watch. I've never had any expensive... you know, items. I'm pretty basic in my clothing.

Shaan Puri

Just like a lot of NBA players end up going broke, or NFL players end up going broke later in their careers. One of the crazy things was that I grew up idolizing Phil Ivey and a lot of poker players. Once I got into the world of business and investing, I realized, "this is kind of what *real wealth* looks like." I also realized that a lot of the guys who were really great poker players — really great gamblers, who you thought were incredibly successful — I don't think they were as successful.

Sam Parr

like businessmen

Shaan Puri

As I thought, I don't think they made as much at their peak. I think they've lost a lot along the way, or they had huge downswings somewhere along the way. As far as—are you the most—did you do the best? Are you the most successful sports bettor that you know, or were there people better than you who made more than you? **Billy Walters** is very...

Haralabos Voulgaris

I mean, **Billy Walters** had the biggest—my edge was that I had to scrap for my edge because Billy Walters had the first computer program. They were using giant Westinghouse machines to feed the information on those giant cards for computer programming. They had a computer program when the Vegas oddsmakers would just sit around a table and say, "I think the line should be seven and a half."

Sam Parr

what do you think jack

Haralabos Voulgaris

And I think it should be around **8.5**. Then Billy Walters' computer guy was like, "No—it's like **4.3**. He's the right price on this game." They had the *best edge ever*. He made a lot of money. Super successful.

Sam Parr

And Billy Walters... I think I saw a *60 Minutes* special on him. Is he... he's a Southern guy?

Shaan Puri

he's a southern guy wait what southern guy

Sam Parr

Yeah. I read about him. Alright — you know, I saw "60 Minutes," and he was exactly like I thought he would be. He seemed like a *fast-talking, wheeling-and-dealing* type.

Haralabos Voulgaris

No, no, no — not a fast talker. The number one thing **Billy Walters** had going for him is he's from the South. And if you're a gambler, one of the greatest things you can have going for you is people thinking you're not as intelligent — that you're not a fast talker.

Sam Parr

I don't mean... I guess I shouldn't have said "fast-talking." I mean, like, *charming — charming*.

Haralabos Voulgaris

yeah oh yes yeah I know but he's like well I like to bake a bed if I could I mean I like

Sam Parr

to make

Haralabos Voulgaris

"A performance game. But the thing about *Billy* is, people underestimated how sharp he was early on. He's as sharp as they come. Did you have any... you?"

Shaan Puri

You know, like in the movies, where it's—the casino's got *facial recognition*. They're like, "Don't let this guy bet anymore." You know... tape you in the back and bruise you up a little bit. Did you ever run into problems with winning, too?

Haralabos Voulgaris

So the way sports betting works: you're not usually betting in the casino. Back then, when I was at my heyday, you were betting with literal street people. They had corner bookmaking operations. **Casinos are for losers and people who can't win** — if you win, they'll just not let you bet anymore. So you need to find a way to bet on credit. You need someone who's going to play a game of telephone with you — someone who will take your bets and then maybe bet more later or think you're a loser. Or you find a "sock" — my big business. Nobody knew who I was or that I was winning money betting because I was never the guy making the bets. I'd always find what's called a **beard** who would make my bets for me. [a "beard" = someone who places bets on your behalf] I've had numerous beards throughout the years who made my bets. They were either really successful business people, degenerate gamblers, Hollywood people, or like Floyd Mayweather, who was a beard for half an afternoon for me. "How did that go?" Yeah... he just wasn't — he was too difficult to work with. I mean, he's got so much money and he's not just...

Sam Parr

like impulsive

Haralabos Voulgaris

nah like dude he'd been hit in the head for like most of his life like you know

Sam Parr

he's how

Haralabos Voulgaris

much how much yeah he doesn't have

Shaan Puri

"To have a big board — he's got a huge bankroll. Couldn't he have just piggybacked off your bet? You're telling him, 'Go bet.'"

Haralabos Voulgaris

I think **Floyd** was already moving for someone else—whether it was **Billy Walters** or someone like that. For sure someone got into Floyd, and Floyd was making those bets. Nobody posts their bets on Instagram for millions and millions of dollars unless there's an angle, whether they're sponsored by the casino or they're... so yeah, I think he was moving money for someone. Someone introduced us. I sat next to him at a *Miami Heat* playoff game, and he liked my friend who was sitting next to me. He took a liking to her, and they became friends. Somehow we ended up in a situation where, for an afternoon, him and the guy—his business guy—and I were talking, and Floyd was going to make the bets, but it just didn't work. I told them I wanted to bet one game, and they said, "No, we like the other side." I said, "That's cool, but can you please go bet this one for me?" They replied, "No, we don't want to do that; we want to bet the other side." I said, "Okay, well then we'll just bet against each other: you bet that side, I'll bet this side." They said, "No, but you always win; we can't do that." I was just like, "Okay, I'm out. I can't deal with this anymore." So that was it.

Sam Parr

"Is the **motivation** in all of this getting rich, or is it getting a rush? Is it an intellectual challenge? What's the motivation?"

Shaan Puri

it's not

Haralabos Voulgaris

A rush? No. The rush is—I'm not a rush guy. I think it's the *intellectual challenge*. Also, I've realized as I've gotten older that I take pride in putting myself in really, really stressful situations and seeing how well I perform. That's probably a weakness of mine: I'll put myself in these really stressful situations without knowing it, but I'll do that.

Shaan Puri

what what's an example of that

Haralabos Voulgaris

Like being all in Bitcoin since February 2013—holding **60% to 70% of your net worth** in it at various points in time.

Sam Parr

a hundred and 60 so you borrowed

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah, so betting on sports and making money was challenging. In terms of winning money, I was living in Canada at the time. I was betting all over the world and receiving money from people everywhere, so my bank accounts were constantly getting closed—even in Canada. I would say, "I'm a *professional gambler*; this is what I do. I pay my taxes as a professional gambler." I was one of the few people in Canada who actually paid tax on their gambling winnings, even though gambling is considered non-taxable there. I was considered an expert, so I didn't have to, but I did—probably stupid on my part. Then I saw how easy it was to move money with *Bitcoin*. Later on, I left Canada after I got tired of paying taxes and moved to Monaco. That entire principality is built on minimizing your tax exposure. We're looking at flats that were just built in Monaco now that cost about $8,590,000,000 for a 3,000-square-foot condo. It's the most expensive real estate in the world, and the only reason it's that expensive is because there's a limited amount of land and everyone lives there because the tax is zero—*zero tax*. And so my... [trails off]

Haralabos Voulgaris

Is that whole "Swiss bank account" move? People are willing. Whereas with *Bitcoin*, you don't have to invest in Monaco real estate to hedge. You can have your money in your pocket. You don't have to worry about a bank. You can move money without intermediaries or permission. Even the bank accounts I had, whether they were in Monaco or Canada, they'd always ask, "Why are you sending this money? Where is it going? Why did you get it?" And now it's even worse. So that was part of it. I liked the math behind it; it made sense to me as a math guy. I'm an independent guy to begin with, and it didn't really click for me until later. I heard about it maybe five or six times before it finally clicked. It finally clicked because I was betting with someone in China who had a really difficult time paying me. Also, I was living in Vancouver before I moved, and my entire apartment building was owned by Chinese expats who were literally laundering their money in Canadian real estate. None of them lived in my building — the entire building was empty except for six people — but the whole building was sold. And all of Vancouver, if you've ever been to Vancouver, Canada, it's an entire money-laundering operation. The real estate is largely owned by foreign people trying to escape regimes; there's capital flight. So *Bitcoin* just made sense. "Okay, I'm going to go buy a condo in Canada, or I'm going to buy some Bitcoin and put it in my wallet to escape — some totality, some regime, some capital flight."

Sam Parr

So, were you taking the 10,000,000 gross earnings and just going straight to Bitcoin?

Haralabos Voulgaris

No, then I was trying to get paid by people who owed me money. The first time I ever acquired *Bitcoin*, there was a gentleman I met playing poker who got me a bunch of accounts in China to bet on NBA basketball — or Asia, let's say. I don't know exactly where it was, but somewhere. It was February, and I asked, "How are you gonna send me money?" We had an HSBC account in Hong Kong, and he said, "I can send you Bitcoin." I was like, "Bitcoin, really? You guys like Bitcoin?" I think the price was around $180 at the time. He said, "Yeah, everyone in China loves Bitcoin," and he explained why everyone loved it and how great it is. So that was it — I bought it. Very quickly it went to $600, then $1,000, and then it slowly went down to about $150 after Bitfinex got hacked the next summer. That's when I got involved and it clicked for me instantly: moving to Monaco for taxes, seeing all of the real estate in Canada being super expensive for native Canadians — especially in Vancouver because of people from Asia buying real estate and just holding it and not doing anything with it. I thought, why would you? Michael Saylor now has a really good view on it: "Why would you ever own real estate when you're at the mercy of the government, which can change the rules and change the taxes, when you could just buy Bitcoin?" So that was it, basically.

Sam Parr

"What—when you're dealing with, you know... *I'm not saying that you're shady or that you ever do anything illegal.* But when gambling, as an outsider, when I hear about gambling, I... you know, I've watched the movie Casino, and I, like, think of the mafia or whatever."

Haralabos Voulgaris

yeah

Sam Parr

When you're owed money — and I'd read stories about how you're owed money and you talked about it — what's up with the *gambling culture*? Do people actually pay their debts, or is it all just a *handshake agreement*?

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I had an advantage. Just to be clear: I lived in Canada; gambling was legal. I paid my taxes. I wasn't doing anything illegal. Some of the people who—my customers—are all breaking the law because they're bookmakers. So I'm not the customer; *I'm the shark, they're the sucker.* I'm winning the money. They may think that I'm the customer, but really I'm not. So for me the hard part was: Revenue Canada wants 57% of my money as my partner, and they're putting all my customers out of business by making it so. That was part of it. To answer your question—*is it hard to get paid?* Yes. People lose money because I'm betting through intermediaries for the most part. Part of the deal is you have to guarantee the money when you're making the bets, and people would go out of their way to guarantee me—not because they're afraid of me (why would they be?), I've never ever done anything to get money other than be annoying—but because if you knew that I was always going to win, and if you didn't pay me you knew you were not going to get my bets anymore, you might go out of pocket to make sure your relationship with me was good, knowing that eventually you're going to make the money back if you're smart enough. If you're smart enough, you'd realize, "Why would I step for Rolibos? Rolibos is gonna win. We're gonna win it back next year. I'll go out of pocket; we'll figure out a solution." That's generally what happened with me.

Sam Parr

"That's a good threat, though. You look—I'm gonna call you **at least five or six times** to get paid."

Haralabos Voulgaris

I know. I didn't even... I was *pretty bad* at it, to be honest. The way to get paid is to be the most annoying person in that person's life. So I had a famous poker player—like, a really good dude—but he was for sure *degenerate*, and he owed me money. Not, like, this guy Eric Lindgren; he talked like... he, you know.

Sam Parr

that's what I was referring to yeah

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah. If he won a tournament, I'd get on a plane and be there when they paid him. I'd just hang out—I mean, *you just gotta know.* But you also have to be kind of understanding that this guy needs to live his life and also have some money. He was a guy who, at the time, owned a piece of **Full Tilt Poker**, so they had all this imaginary money and thought they were going to be so rich. He didn't really worry about getting paid because he thought eventually they'd get paid by Full Tilt Poker. Then Full Tilt Poker got shut down, so... all these guys— Anyways, yeah. That's what you do: you just be annoying.

Shaan Puri

what what inspired you to buy

Haralabos Voulgaris

the soccer team so like where

Shaan Puri

like how long did you had that idea before you end up doing it I wanted

Haralabos Voulgaris

I wanted to buy an **NBA** team. Then I worked... I saw how the sausage was made, and I was like, "Yeah, the NBA's not for me." And what do you...

Shaan Puri

do by that

Haralabos Voulgaris

why not I mean for one the franchise valuations are going up and up and up and up it's a very very very difficult business to buy because you're competing with the richest people in the world who want these assets so it's very difficult and then I just found I started finding the sport not that interesting anymore after seeing like how everything was I didn't I didn't like I think the the bubble for me kind of ended it because it was during that time when the the league became like which is cool because the league was primarily they became like almost like a social cause versus and I thought that's good for society in some ways if you believe that and but for me it just became too much I just wanted I just wanna sport I just like sport so around that time I didn't wanna you know I didn't wanna I think people I think where the nba maybe missed things is I think a lot of people wanted to escape during coronavirus into sport I want I okay forget about other people I want to escape the shitty the the whatever the riots the burn the whatever I want to escape all that into sport and I'm watching the nba and it's and maybe maybe the answer isn't for maybe the answer isn't escape for people who are I'm not american but maybe for americans who are living through it and they really believe that that whatever that's cool but for me I was just like I don't want to watch this like I just want I just wanna I wanna watch a basketball game I don't wanna have like a message and so yeah it just became it became too much I think in some ways it became overwhelming and then also you're I was working for the mavericks at the same time and they were in the bubble and I'm hearing the stories from them and you have like african american coaches who are like really upset with what's happening as they should be the players are upset it just became like really draining emotionally in a way that made me really kind of sad and I started watching football more because soccer was the first store sport to start up after covid and so I just got really into it and we were already building models to begin with before then I just thought you know what I wanna this is new it's exciting it's more mathematical in the sense of it's unsolved it's a lot more there's a lot the game tree is bigger it's more nuanced basketball's pretty simple you get a top five player you put him on the court you surround him with other players but he's the guy like it's called heliocentrism and then you profit and then you trade him for anthony davis and one first I don't know but that's it you just find a guy like luka or lebron or djokic or whatever and off you go but not that difficult

Sam Parr

You said, "We — you said we are building models." I think Sean and I were talking, and he was like, "This guy's like a *lone wolf*." No, no, no. I don't know the truth, and I want you to tell me the truth. Do you—? I think you don't have a family; I think you're—you're... And I think that, from an outside perspective, it doesn't seem like you have this massive company. Like, what's...?

Haralabos Voulgaris

"That part—I'm a **lone wolf**." "Yeah. Okay. Now I am a lone wolf when you put it that way. Yeah, I've always been very... I have people who work for me. I have people who work..."

Sam Parr

for me yeah I can can you explain that what's your what's the organization what's your

Shaan Puri

team look like

Haralabos Voulgaris

so I have now my organization not counting the football team which is completely separate there's like two fifty people or something worked for me I don't know how many it is it's a lot maybe less I don't know account academy players but no I just have I still do my basketball betting I spend zero time on it it's an automated program but when I first started betting on basketball programmatically with a model when I decided that my method works but it only works if my mindset is good if I wanna have a life and have like emotional relationships with females and have a partnership whatever and I'm upset I'm making bad decisions when I'm gambling it's harder to be like a perfect arbiter of what's right and what's wrong and what's the right information when you're the input so I wanted to automate me basically and so so yeah I I hired a couple different quants unsuccessfully they weren't great kept trying and then a friend of mine a poker player by the name of well he played poker this guy named brandon adams was teaching at harvard at the time and I was playing poker with him really really smart guy and he said I have this student that I think you need to talk to he's a genius and he'd be perfect and I met him and that was the guy who basically together we built our simulation models that really took me to the next level which was not the little the halftime thing which I made a lot of money on this was now full game bets on you know sides totals everything and so him and I together built and our operation was myself this individual and then one person who basically was two people who were putting the bets in and also making the lineups and then me and my the person we call him the wiz because he doesn't wanna be nobody wants to know who he is but he's out there what's up and we had a we had a falling out he doesn't we're not a falling out but he when I went to go work for the mavs I basically turned over the business to them and he ran it for a while didn't enjoy it they didn't do that well and he left and then when I quit the mavs we started back up again and that was it so I basically did the gambling again not for myself but for the people who worked for me to allow them to make continue to make a lot of money because I've had guys who've worked for me now for over twelve or thirteen years with a gap with a gap.

Haralabos Voulgaris

In mavericks and so they run everything and they do everything

Sam Parr

dude you're basically running it like a like a small little seed fund sean you know what I mean

Shaan Puri

like a hedge fund

Haralabos Voulgaris

algorithmic hedge fund like jump -

Shaan Puri

You know, those guys measure their success on *IRR* or *annual returns*. If they could get 20%–30% returns, what's a good annual return for you? What's a bad annual return for you? Where do you land? I know what multifamily can get you. I know what private equity can get you. I know what venture can...

Haralabos Voulgaris

Get to you—it's hard to really quantify, because I'm never able to bet my entire network. I can't take in outside capital. I don't look at it as an annual ARR [annual recurring revenue]; it's more of a return on investment on every bet we're making. Every bet we make: a bad year for us was about **4–4.5%** ROI on every bet. A good year is like in the **8–9%** range. Of course, you want as many bets and as much profit as possible, so you expect your ROI to go down a little as your bet volume goes up. It's like you're threading the needle. But the game has changed so much. Now we've got two models running at all times and we use a mix between the two. When I say it's automated, it's **completely automated** — zero manual intervention for the last four or five years. Even before, when these guys were running it themselves, nobody was saying, "I think the model's wrong." The model gets teams wrong for sure. We have a guy who says, "Yeah, we're really off on these Oklahoma City totals. We think they should be higher-scoring, but they're not. We think they're going to be lower-scoring. We think they're higher-scoring, but they're going under." And I'm just like, "Cool. We're not making any changes — we have a model." </FormattedResponse>

Sam Parr

And as you know — we said this before — I don't pay too much attention to sports. I think it's *fucking insane*, though, that every sport is basically a gambling thing now. It's gross. I think it's weird.

Haralabos Voulgaris

not weird it's gross

Sam Parr

Yeah, it's *messed up*. I think it's wrong. But does that make you richer, then, because you have more retail investors?

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah. The amount of... I don't even look. Last night, I probably lost more money on **Fartcoin**. My Fartcoin holding, on paper, is more than what I would make in an entire year betting the **NBA**. I don't care what we make in the **NBA**. I just do it because it's meaningful for the people who work for me, and they have a massive profit share in it. So that's why we do it.

Shaan Puri

So, well, let me just recap a couple things you said. If every bet, you know, returns **4% or 5%** — or, good, **10%** — that means you need to bet like **$100 million** of total betting volume (total dollars bet) to make **$10,000,000**. Is that correct? Yeah? </FormattedResponse>

Haralabos Voulgaris

Well, **you don't need 100 million** to do that because you're doing it every day, multiple times over. So, yeah — so yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, so couldn't...

Shaan Puri

You've applied your brain to buying HVAC companies as private equity and gotten better returns, right? I always think about this: if I hear somebody's a *"pro blackjack player,"* I'm like—first of all, I don't even know if that's actually a thing. I don't know if blackjack is a game you can get an edge in anymore. Secondly, if you're that good and that smart, couldn't you just apply it to an easier game and make more money? Don't you think about that for yourself?

Haralabos Voulgaris

If my dad was Ray Dalio, I probably would've gone a different path. But unfortunately, my dad was a Greek gambler who spent his time at the racetrack. So this is what I knew. I don't know what else to say. </FormattedResponse>

Sam Parr

**But you have done it — you have done it, right?** You're buying a team that seems like it could be a great business move, and you did crypto.

Haralabos Voulgaris

"Yeah, the crypto thing is really the part, I think, that is because I don't have an *edge* in finance. These people are bigger—they're smarter. Maybe I could have honed in on one specific category that I knew very well, but again... I try to. I'm a gambler in the sense that I like gambling games. The number one edge in poker is playing with players who are worse than you. That's just it. So I try to apply that to my businesses as well. I try to stay away from people who are smarter than me—there are plenty of them that I'm competing against. So, yeah. Am I going to compete with them? No, I don't think so. Maybe, but at this point I think I'm good at what I'm doing. I like my *quality of life*."

Sam Parr

"Well, what do you do with your money now? Do you like your income or your investments? Do you do... any boring stuff?" "I mean, I mostly do boring stuff — **index funds**."

Haralabos Voulgaris

I do *super boring* stuff. Every dollar I earn goes directly into **Bitcoin**. That's my boring stuff.

Sam Parr

is that so that's still how how you roll then

Haralabos Voulgaris

correct yeah

Sam Parr

wow

Haralabos Voulgaris

every dollar I make betting sports goes into bitcoin has forever I just so

Sam Parr

you made more money off bitcoin than you have sports betting

Haralabos Voulgaris

yeah for sure yeah I've done very well with bitcoin I've done very well but you know

Shaan Puri

What's your **endgame** with Bitcoin? Is it "hold forever"? Is it that Bitcoin becomes a global reserve currency? Where does it—there's no **exit** with Bitcoin, right, for you?

Haralabos Voulgaris

I don't know. I wish I could do a better **Michael Saylor** impersonation, but I don't. I like this guy. I feel like his endgame—as crazy as he is—is that he's kind of a savant. He's kind of figured it out. What is your endgame? I don't know. Dollars? What am I gonna do with dollars—dollars, like, sorry, they're printing more of it. It doesn't seem like it works for me. I remember being in COVID in Malibu during COVID, and the houses that I had rented had gone up in value—like, tripled. Rich people's stuff was becoming more and more expensive as more and more money entered the system. So what's my endgame? I don't know. Protect my wealth, I guess. Maintain my sovereignty—that's my endgame, I don't know. Just to be clear: I don't have it in... I like **Bitcoin**, but I'm still not like the pure Bitcoin guys—the guys who have their own seed and have it memorized in their head. That's not me. My money's in fiat; it's in the bank, it's with a third party. It's not smart, but I like my quality of life. I don't want to be my own bank. Being my own bank was cool before people knew what crypto was. Now, being your own bank is not cool for me. Just to be clear: I love **Bitcoin**. I love the self-sovereignty of it—that's the ethos—but my money is custodied with institutions, unfortunately.

Sam Parr

Do you own anything? Do you own any *real estate*, *cars*, and items, or do you *live light*?

Haralabos Voulgaris

yeah dude I feel like a lot of this guy thinks I'm like some kinda like

Shaan Puri

I'm like an alien

Haralabos Voulgaris

who just dropped into the world that has nothing well you I love you that's why I'm big fun and watching sports all day

Sam Parr

Sean and I *actually* both rent homes. I don't—I *actually* don't own a lot of stuff. I like living light. Sean does too. We don't actually own houses; we like to own houses. I'm not

Haralabos Voulgaris

So recently I was with you guys, and I didn't own any real estate. I had bought real estate when I was younger, but before that I thought the better move was **Bitcoin**. Why buy a house in Malibu when I can rent and buy **Bitcoin**? I sold... I also sold all of my assets during the 2017 dump. I owned property—I own property in Mexico, some vacation property, and some property in Europe. I had a plane. I sold it all. Actually, some friends tried to schedule an intervention because they thought I'd lost my mind when I sold everything to buy more **Bitcoin** at $3,300.

Shaan Puri

Wow — you sold all your shit to *buy the dip*? That's incredible. That's amazing. I gotta ask you a different question: what are you into now? We asked you a bunch about the past, but what's the future shit you're really into? Somebody said you're into *biohacking*, or you're into... yeah?

Haralabos Voulgaris

I mentioned something interesting about owning things and no

Shaan Puri

I'm just kidding

Haralabos Voulgaris

"I'm just kidding. What am I into now? I'm into *biohacking*. I'm into... yeah, I don't know. I think I'm into—it's interesting because I'm really into *analog things*: records, books, old games, old pinball machines."

Shaan Puri

yeah are you like detoxing from phone like phone goes away for hours

Haralabos Voulgaris

and days

Shaan Puri

yeah I'm

Haralabos Voulgaris

I'm getting this new—oh, I forgot what it's called—but it's a new thing that's black and white. I'm trying to... what's it called? I'm into that. I think *"O box"* is the new one that just came out. *"Palma Two,"* I think that's what it is. It's supposed to be getting shipped, and that looks really cool. [Speaker uncertain about the product names.]

Sam Parr

We love those things. I use the **Brick** all the time. And then there's **Daylight**, which is another dumb phone, basically.

Haralabos Voulgaris

Daylight's nice. I've used Daylight. Yeah—I'm into that. To be honest... during COVID I started getting into western life. "This is gonna sound crazy, but I want a ranch."

Shaan Puri

yes I bought a ranch

Sam Parr

I bought a ranch my friend do you wanna be buddies

Haralabos Voulgaris

I would love to do that. I bought a yacht before; it was cruising the Mediterranean. Now I'm like, "Nah — I want a ranch. I want horses. I want a *simple life.*" So that's what I'm into.

Shaan Puri

What are you doing for *biohacking*? What are you finding valuable or helpful, or what are you seeing?

Haralabos Voulgaris

**Best thing.** Yeah — I do a lot of *peptide* stuff. I kind of grew up in, or I should say I spent a lot of time in, rich-guy L.A. circles for a minute playing poker. All these guys were on **TRT** and **HGH** and all this other stuff. They looked great, but they weren't necessarily optimizing for living longer. **HGH** is great — you feel awesome on it, but you're definitely not living longer taking it. **TRT** I think can be good for some people. It didn't work for me; I tried it and it made me irritable. So I do other things to raise my testosterone. I take some [rodacea? — unclear] and [fudociart testis? — unclear], and I do a lot of squats and kettlebell work. I do quite well with that. But what am I taking? I'm taking peptides for the most part. I think the best thing I've ever done: I do a lot of sauna and red-light therapy. I would say the best thing—

Sam Parr

that brian johnson regimen

Haralabos Voulgaris

I mean, yeah — I admire what he's doing. I just think, what's the... I mean, he's doing it for science, I guess, but for me it's — yeah, not for me. I'm not that bad, but I do take about **twenty** supplements a day for sure. I inject myself with some peptides when I'm diligent about it. But I think the best thing I've ever done is *stem cells*.

Shaan Puri

Are you doing *peptides* in stem cells for injury recovery, or... you're doing— I thought peptides are for injury recovery. Do you use them for other things?

Sam Parr

a peptide's like a protein yeah like or an amino acid I guess which is a precursor to proteins

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah, it's a precursor. You can find a peptide—it's a precursor for whatever you want to solve for. Some are for injury recovery, like **DPC-157**. That's what I took.

Sam Parr

I took that from my achilles it was great

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah, but it also—by the way—that also helps your gut, which then connects to your brain and helps your brain. There are a lot of benefits to it. I take *tesamorelin*, *ipamorelin*, and *hexarelin* through my doctor. I get tested very regularly—my blood is tested very, very regularly. The best thing I've ever done, and the thing I would recommend to anyone who can afford it, is—aside from using a sauna five times a week—getting actual stem cells: **mesenchymal stem cells from the umbilical cord**.

Sam Parr

Do you do that if you have an injury? Or, like, "I feel great"… did you—were you okay? You look… right? </FormattedResponse>

Haralabos Voulgaris

So, you're probably—yeah. I mean, I... No, you both look like you're doing great with your health. I'm not sure how, but you look like you're doing great. Do people do it for injury? I did it because I wanted to feel better. I found this place in Panama—the **Stem Cell Institute**—and they were kind of one of the pioneers behind it: **Dr. Reordan**. I think Mel Gibson's dad may have talked about this on the Joe Rogan show. I'd already gone there, but I think there's an episode where Mel Gibson talks about his dad going there to get stem cells. I've seen similar things—it's unbelievable. Is this the one?

Shaan Puri

where it's like its own sovereign land

Haralabos Voulgaris

No, I don't know what that is, but this is just **Panama**. You were, like, at the **Hilton** last time? I don't think it was *Sovereign*. Oh — I know what you're talking about. I do know what you're talking about. No, it's nothing like that. </FormattedResponse>

Sam Parr

"Aren't they doing genetic — they're doing genetic. Chris, what's it called? Chris Pearl. Yeah, they're doing that, right? It's like a Peter Thiel thing."

Haralabos Voulgaris

"They're doing genome editing. I don't want any of that. I just want— I want **building blocks** put into my body to make me *young*. So if he can give me the stuff that little baby has to grow an actual, fucking human body..."

Sam Parr

"Wait, what are these guys doing? It's like their own little *sovereign area*, and they're building—like—the future *Yao Ming* super baby or something."

Shaan Puri

You know, like the *network state* stuff, right? It's basically like, "Oh, if we can get..." I invested in Praxis. It's like people want to create new lands where they can have—let's say—more; they can have different rules for themselves. It's, yeah.

Sam Parr

It's like a land where *Ayn Rand* is the president. You know—it's libertarian. It's like libertarian land.

Shaan Puri

You gotta watch the documentary — it's *hilarious*. Brian goes there; I think he goes for a full plasma swap with his son and his dad or something like that. I don't remember the exact procedure he did, but he goes, and it's the two scientists who created this institute. They show a guy who's clearly like 22 years old — he's so young — but he has this mustache and glasses with a rope, as if... bro, we can see through the disguise. You're 22 years old. And the... the narrator...

Sam Parr

was he standing on another kid's shoulders with a trench coat on

Shaan Puri

Exactly. He *literally* looked like that, and he's like, "You know, I think these guys' hearts are in the right place, but, you know, they're not like 20-year Ph.D.s, if you know what I mean." It's like, "Yeah, because he's 20."

Haralabos Voulgaris

it

Shaan Puri

was it was so funny you gotta watch that part

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah, I actually did watch it, and I know what you're talking about now. I remember I had my finger—this is where I need my digital [fast-forward]—but I had my finger on the fast-forward the entire time. I was like, you can't watch it all the way through; it's just... "what is this?" It's not that interesting. I didn't like talking about it. Now, yeah, it's nothing like that. This is more for people who have a **rotator cuff injury**. Some parents were there with kids who were autistic and they were doing that therapy. There were people with **MS**, and a lot of different conditions were being treated. I've done it maybe seven times. The injuries you have will repair permanently—that's permanent. The "Superman" feeling you have for three to four months afterward is fleeting, but it feels amazing for those two or three months. There are a lot of physiological effects. Sometimes you get a good batch; sometimes you don't, or it doesn't take. If you had a good batch, you'll know it. It's great. I haven't done it in a while, but...

Sam Parr

is amazing do you do any drugs or drink alcohol do you get like fucked up at all no or so

Shaan Puri

you're sober

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah. I've just never... I think the last time I ever got— I mean, I was betting on NFL football, Canadian football, and university football, and waking up with a hangover. I was just like, **"Yeah, this doesn't work."**

Sam Parr

So you've been in this, like, *vice* for this world — a world of vice, but not substances — and, like... you're no—

Haralabos Voulgaris

I'm not too much of a control... I'm a control. I like to be *in control* of myself. I like to be in control of my emotions. I like to be making good decisions. I don't like being unable to think rationally, so **alcohol doesn't do it for me**.

Shaan Puri

Dude, this is great. Thanks for doing this, man. Where should people follow you? Is *Twitter* still the best place, or...?

Haralabos Voulgaris

Yeah, I mean, **follow the football club**. I'm not looking to promote myself, but I would love for the football club to get more — you know, we were doing some great things this year at the football club, and then you...

Shaan Puri

guys won right you won the like we

Haralabos Voulgaris

"We were recently promoted to **LaLiga 2**. We had an amazing start to the season. Then we had a stretch where we played 22 games in six days. I failed the culture in that I wasn't able to demand that we do things that were proper for rest and health for the players, and we ran our players into the ground during that period. Because I didn't insist — and that was something the coaches wanted to do — we then suffered some injuries. We've been in the midst of a six-game losing streak right now, which is sad, and we're paying for what we did in November, which was a **cultural failure on my part**."

Shaan Puri

so I have

Haralabos Voulgaris

a lot of are you able

Sam Parr

to like apply the biohacking shit that you're learning to your sports psychology

Haralabos Voulgaris

Not in the medicine part of it, but there are lots of studies on how to optimize health. For example, your risk of muscle injury goes up *25%* if a football player plays more than one game every six days. There's plenty of research that can help you make good decisions. For sleep and recovery, we're going to do a better job. When I bought the team, we didn't even have a **training facility**, so we're building a brand new training facility. We hope to announce the land we've acquired soon, and we'll do things like that.

Sam Parr

Mostly because that one — you were going to go from doing these bets and hanging out with your dad in Vegas to *owning a team* and *implementing whatever you want to implement*. That's pretty wild, right? That's a good — that's a good ending so far. Or it's not the end, but it's a...

Shaan Puri

good part

Sam Parr

of the story

Haralabos Voulgaris

you did think that

Sam Parr

you thought that

Haralabos Voulgaris

I did. I was very delusional when I was younger. I was... I'm a big fan of that sort of stuff—like *speaking things*, not *speaking them into existence*, but just having the **belief**. Why not? I mean, I know the universe is kind of there. If you do it, you can craft your own path. Just keep trying until you get there. </FormattedResponse>

Sam Parr

dude you're insane you're the man awesome you're the man you're

Shaan Puri

the man thanks for coming on dude

Sam Parr

you yeah

Shaan Puri

you're welcome

Sam Parr

well thank you man that's it that's the pod